Discussion:
Musings on terrorism, maybe OT
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de chucka
2018-05-13 22:13:01 UTC
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I was discussing the latest attacks in Indonesia with a couple of mates
last night. My point was how could anybody could kill people in the name
of religion. It was raised that my Grandfather left Australia in 1915 to
kill people in Europe in the name of the Crown. When I raised that he
was only killing other soldiers it was quickly mentioned the history of
civilians being killed in the name of 'something'. The Romans, Greeks,
Vlad the Impaler, Genghis Khan, American Civil War, bombing of cities in
WW2 etc.

This is not a defence of terrorism rather a comment that killing
civilians in the name of 'something' no matter what is WRONG. At least
soldiers know what they are getting into and in most cases put their
hand up for it.
Pelican
2018-05-13 22:27:09 UTC
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Post by de chucka
I was discussing the latest attacks in Indonesia with a couple of mates
last night. My point was how could anybody could kill people in the name
of religion. It was raised that my Grandfather left Australia in 1915 to
kill people in Europe in the name of the Crown. When I raised that he
was only killing other soldiers it was quickly mentioned the history of
civilians being killed in the name of 'something'. The Romans, Greeks,
Vlad the Impaler, Genghis Khan, American Civil War, bombing of cities in
WW2 etc.
This is not a defence of terrorism rather a comment that killing
civilians in the name of 'something' no matter what is WRONG. At least
soldiers know what they are getting into and in most cases put their
hand up for it.
There you go. That's what happens when you mix politics and beer.
de chucka
2018-05-13 22:33:12 UTC
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Post by de chucka
I was discussing the latest attacks in Indonesia with a couple of
mates last night. My point was how could anybody could kill people in
the name of religion. It was raised that my Grandfather left Australia
in 1915 to kill people in Europe in the name of the Crown. When I
raised that he was only killing other soldiers it was quickly
mentioned the history of civilians being killed in the name of
'something'. The Romans, Greeks, Vlad the Impaler, Genghis Khan,
American Civil War, bombing of cities in WW2 etc.
This is not a defence of terrorism rather a comment that killing
civilians in the name of 'something' no matter what is WRONG. At least
soldiers know what they are getting into and in most cases put their
hand up for it.
There you go.  That's what happens when you mix politics and beer.
Actually out in the State Forest waiting for the cops to turn up to a
dumped car we'd just extinguished so your condescending prat comment was
wrong. AGAIN
Pelican
2018-05-13 22:52:05 UTC
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Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
I was discussing the latest attacks in Indonesia with a couple of
mates last night. My point was how could anybody could kill people in
the name of religion. It was raised that my Grandfather left
Australia in 1915 to kill people in Europe in the name of the Crown.
When I raised that he was only killing other soldiers it was quickly
mentioned the history of civilians being killed in the name of
'something'. The Romans, Greeks, Vlad the Impaler, Genghis Khan,
American Civil War, bombing of cities in WW2 etc.
This is not a defence of terrorism rather a comment that killing
civilians in the name of 'something' no matter what is WRONG. At
least soldiers know what they are getting into and in most cases put
their hand up for it.
There you go.  That's what happens when you mix politics and beer.
Actually out in the State Forest waiting for the cops to turn up to a
dumped car we'd just extinguished so your condescending prat comment was
wrong. AGAIN
Well, ok, you get a point for being civic-minded.
de chucka
2018-05-13 23:14:07 UTC
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Post by Pelican
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
I was discussing the latest attacks in Indonesia with a couple of
mates last night. My point was how could anybody could kill people
in the name of religion. It was raised that my Grandfather left
Australia in 1915 to kill people in Europe in the name of the Crown.
When I raised that he was only killing other soldiers it was quickly
mentioned the history of civilians being killed in the name of
'something'. The Romans, Greeks, Vlad the Impaler, Genghis Khan,
American Civil War, bombing of cities in WW2 etc.
This is not a defence of terrorism rather a comment that killing
civilians in the name of 'something' no matter what is WRONG. At
least soldiers know what they are getting into and in most cases put
their hand up for it.
There you go.  That's what happens when you mix politics and beer.
Actually out in the State Forest waiting for the cops to turn up to a
dumped car we'd just extinguished so your condescending prat comment
was wrong. AGAIN
Well, ok, you get a point for being civic-minded.
You get -3 for jumping to conclusions, being a prat and posting
irrelevancies.
Pelican
2018-05-13 23:39:46 UTC
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Post by de chucka
Post by Pelican
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
I was discussing the latest attacks in Indonesia with a couple of
mates last night. My point was how could anybody could kill people
in the name of religion. It was raised that my Grandfather left
Australia in 1915 to kill people in Europe in the name of the
Crown. When I raised that he was only killing other soldiers it was
quickly mentioned the history of civilians being killed in the name
of 'something'. The Romans, Greeks, Vlad the Impaler, Genghis Khan,
American Civil War, bombing of cities in WW2 etc.
This is not a defence of terrorism rather a comment that killing
civilians in the name of 'something' no matter what is WRONG. At
least soldiers know what they are getting into and in most cases
put their hand up for it.
There you go.  That's what happens when you mix politics and beer.
Actually out in the State Forest waiting for the cops to turn up to a
dumped car we'd just extinguished so your condescending prat comment
was wrong. AGAIN
Well, ok, you get a point for being civic-minded.
You get -3 for jumping to conclusions, being a prat and posting
irrelevancies.
I feel so ashamed - scarred for life, or at least a nano-second.
Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
2018-05-13 23:45:18 UTC
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Post by de chucka
I was discussing the latest attacks in Indonesia with a couple of mates
last night. My point was how could anybody could kill people in the name
of religion. It was raised that my Grandfather left Australia in 1915 to
kill people in Europe in the name of the Crown. When I raised that he
was only killing other soldiers it was quickly mentioned the history of
civilians being killed in the name of 'something'. The Romans, Greeks,
Vlad the Impaler, Genghis Khan, American Civil War, bombing of cities in
WW2 etc.
This is not a defence of terrorism rather a comment that killing
civilians in the name of 'something' no matter what is WRONG. At least
soldiers know what they are getting into and in most cases put their
hand up for it.
Clausewitz tells us that War is two things:
1/ A method for resolving disputes antecedent to all Diplomacy or States, and therefore a primal urge
2/ A continuation of politics by other means

And Lenin says words to the effect of "Politics is the reason, war is the tool"

So wars must all differ in how justified they are, depending in what the dispute it, what the politics is.

2 case studies:

1. The British waged war on the cult of Kali. The nature of Kali engendered disputes between those who were targeted by Kali, and those who did not wish to be robbed or murdered. The British made a political decision to eliminate the source of such disputes by eliminating Kali. Each side employed their respective adherents to fight the other.
We would be asked to accept the justification that Kali's devotion to robbery and murder meant that Kali should be destroyed and that any casualties were the necessary result of achieving that justified aim.

2. The USA - with proxies - waged war on the Vietnamese Communists. Many layers of disputes arose between those who wanted to impose Communist rule, and those who wanted to resist it. The USA made a political decision that Communism should be resisted. Opposing Communist states made the political decision that Communism in Vietnam should be assisted. The adherents to each political entity did their jobs by fighting each other.
We would be asked to accept the justification that, Communism representing an unacceptable threat to personal freedoms and personal quality of life, any casualties were the necessary result of achieving that justified aim.

So war, being either a continuation of politics, or a tool of politics, is therefore just as unavoidably complex and full of moral compromises as politics itself obviously is.

You either morally accept murder and robbery and oppose Kali's elimination, or you accept deaths will be the result of ending Kali's murder and robbery.

You either morally accept persecutions, dire poverty and state-sanctioned mass-murder, or you accept deaths will be the result of ending Communist rule.

This is about "why way" not "how war".
"How war" is a different, and constantly evolving issue, and we have things like Geneva Conventions to try to agree on it as well as other tacit agreements such as the almost total absence of chemical warfare during WW2, or today's situation where only a handful of States employ cluster munitions.
Pelican
2018-05-14 00:25:15 UTC
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Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by de chucka
I was discussing the latest attacks in Indonesia with a couple of mates
last night. My point was how could anybody could kill people in the name
of religion. It was raised that my Grandfather left Australia in 1915 to
kill people in Europe in the name of the Crown. When I raised that he
was only killing other soldiers it was quickly mentioned the history of
civilians being killed in the name of 'something'. The Romans, Greeks,
Vlad the Impaler, Genghis Khan, American Civil War, bombing of cities in
WW2 etc.
This is not a defence of terrorism rather a comment that killing
civilians in the name of 'something' no matter what is WRONG. At least
soldiers know what they are getting into and in most cases put their
hand up for it.
1/ A method for resolving disputes antecedent to all Diplomacy or States, and therefore a primal urge
2/ A continuation of politics by other means
And Lenin says words to the effect of "Politics is the reason, war is the tool"
So wars must all differ in how justified they are, depending in what the dispute it, what the politics is.
1. The British waged war on the cult of Kali. The nature of Kali engendered disputes between those who were targeted by Kali, and those who did not wish to be robbed or murdered. The British made a political decision to eliminate the source of such disputes by eliminating Kali. Each side employed their respective adherents to fight the other.
We would be asked to accept the justification that Kali's devotion to robbery and murder meant that Kali should be destroyed and that any casualties were the necessary result of achieving that justified aim.
Kali? It's the 21st century, not colonial India.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
2. The USA - with proxies - waged war on the Vietnamese Communists. Many layers of disputes arose between those who wanted to impose Communist rule, and those who wanted to resist it. The USA made a political decision that Communism should be resisted. Opposing Communist states made the political decision that Communism in Vietnam should be assisted. The adherents to each political entity did their jobs by fighting each other.
We would be asked to accept the justification that, Communism representing an unacceptable threat to personal freedoms and personal quality of life, any casualties were the necessary result of achieving that justified aim.
That is a very misleading narrative of the war in Vietnam. The facts
are that the Japanese kicked the European colonisers out of Asia during
WW2, which was a basic bit of Japanese foreign policy. After the War,
the French returned, and got their arses comprehensively kicked by the
Vietnamese. Vietnam was then divided between the north and the south,
with a promise of a referendum to join the two parts. The south reneged
on the deal, being the corrupt cretins they were, and the Vietnam war
began. The US, in its traditional fuckwitted way, intervened. The
north Vietnamese duly kicked the arses of the US and its allies,
including Australia, and the US and its allies ran away.

Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
So war, being either a continuation of politics, or a tool of politics, is therefore just as unavoidably complex and full of moral compromises as politics itself obviously is.
You either morally accept murder and robbery and oppose Kali's elimination, or you accept deaths will be the result of ending Kali's murder and robbery.
You either morally accept persecutions, dire poverty and state-sanctioned mass-murder, or you accept deaths will be the result of ending Communist rule.
Bullshit. Communist rule is not ended by war, certainly not war imposed
by external States. It collapses from within.

And persecutions, dire poverty and state-sanctioned mass-murder are not
inventions of communism.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
This is about "why way" not "how war".
"How war" is a different, and constantly evolving issue, and we have things like Geneva Conventions to try to agree on it as well as other tacit agreements such as the almost total absence of chemical warfare during WW2, or today's situation where only a handful of States employ cluster munitions.
No! Really?
Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
2018-05-14 00:37:13 UTC
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Post by Pelican
That is a very misleading narrative of the war in Vietnam. The facts
are that the Japanese kicked the European colonisers out of Asia during
WW2, which was a basic bit of Japanese foreign policy. After the War,
the French returned, and got their arses comprehensively kicked by the
Vietnamese. Vietnam was then divided between the north and the south,
with a promise of a referendum to join the two parts. The south reneged
on the deal, being the corrupt cretins they were, and the Vietnam war
began. The US, in its traditional fuckwitted way, intervened. The
north Vietnamese duly kicked the arses of the US and its allies,
including Australia, and the US and its allies ran away.
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
Pelican
2018-05-14 01:24:42 UTC
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Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
That is a very misleading narrative of the war in Vietnam. The facts
are that the Japanese kicked the European colonisers out of Asia during
WW2, which was a basic bit of Japanese foreign policy. After the War,
the French returned, and got their arses comprehensively kicked by the
Vietnamese. Vietnam was then divided between the north and the south,
with a promise of a referendum to join the two parts. The south reneged
on the deal, being the corrupt cretins they were, and the Vietnam war
began. The US, in its traditional fuckwitted way, intervened. The
north Vietnamese duly kicked the arses of the US and its allies,
including Australia, and the US and its allies ran away.
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further. There is now only one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. It is communist, although not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba. The US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.

That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq. And the half-arsed intervention
in Syria.

Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions. We are still in the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian catastrophe.

All a complete and utter shambles. Bravo US. Some "plan", that!
Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
2018-05-14 04:38:35 UTC
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Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further. There is now only one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. It is communist, although not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba. The US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq. And the half-arsed intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions. We are still in the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles. Bravo US. Some "plan", that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10 years previously.
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in Vietnam left the Communists and their backers bereft of the means and motivation to carry on invading further nations in South East Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more than a decade later.
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and although they are still a single party state, they are allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR, but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.

The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place, it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the communist-inclined Sukarno. Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take root.

Communism is not yet fully in the dustbin of history, thanks to die-hards in denial, but only the loons still believe it doesn't belong there....
....leading us back to the question of justification - Communism was an ideology that was thoroughly antithetical to our values, and it proved as much through the mass-murder of many tens of millions of people from Poland and the Ukraine through central Asia to China, Korea, and Cambodia.
Fighting Communism cost many hundreds of thousands of lives.

The question about "war" is - is it OK to cause the deaths of many hundreds of thousands for the sake of a political cause aimed at stopping an ideology that has killed many tens of millions?

The answer is a no-brainer to rational people.
There is only any debate among those who are too dim to think their way past the marxist indoctrination that is rampant in the Western world's educations systems and who insist on ignoring the reality in order to focus on out-of-context detail and obsolete ideologies.
Pelican
2018-05-14 05:10:14 UTC
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Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further. There is now only one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. It is communist, although not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba. The US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq. And the half-arsed intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions. We are still in the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles. Bravo US. Some "plan", that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10 years previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own country.
Just like the Civil War in the US. It wasn't anything like an invasion.
People don't invade their own country.

It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in Vietnam left the Communists and their backers bereft of the means and motivation to carry on invading further nations in South East Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more than a decade later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country if something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and although they are still a single party state, they are allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR, but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh? Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter? Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.

Capitalist countries have governments which are equally incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Communism is not yet fully in the dustbin of history, thanks to die-hards in denial, but only the loons still believe it doesn't belong there....
Who is arguing that?
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
....leading us back to the question of justification - Communism was an ideology that was thoroughly antithetical to our values, and it proved as much through the mass-murder of many tens of millions of people from Poland and the Ukraine through central Asia to China, Korea, and Cambodia.
Like Nazi Germany, eh?
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Fighting Communism cost many hundreds of thousands of lives.
And was fundamentally a mistake because communism has collapsed
internally, not by war.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The question about "war" is - is it OK to cause the deaths of many hundreds of thousands for the sake of a political cause aimed at stopping an ideology that has killed many tens of millions?
Is that from Poli-Sci 101 at your kindy?
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The answer is a no-brainer to rational people.
There is only any debate among those who are too dim to think their way past the marxist indoctrination that is rampant in the Western world's educations systems and who insist on ignoring the reality in order to focus on out-of-context detail and obsolete ideologies.
Must be fascinating for those around you to witness the behaviour of a
closed mind in full flight.
de chucka
2018-05-14 05:22:24 UTC
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snip
 People don't invade their own country.
Of course they have e.g. Free French on D-Day, Bay of Pigs

snip
Pelican
2018-05-14 06:17:19 UTC
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Post by de chucka
snip
  People don't invade their own country.
Of course they have e.g. Free French on D-Day,
The Free French had a lot to do with D-Day, you say? Providing the
cheese and wine, perhaps.
Post by de chucka
Bay of Pigs
The Bay of Pigs was a CIA operation.
Post by de chucka
snip
Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
2018-05-14 06:52:28 UTC
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Post by Pelican
Post by de chucka
snip
  People don't invade their own country.
Of course they have e.g. Free French on D-Day,
The Free French had a lot to do with D-Day, you say? Providing the
cheese and wine, perhaps.
My great uncle arriving on a beach landing craft full of Free French.
The Free French troops had fought in North Africa, were mostly equipped with US gear, and a very small advance guard of them landed with the British on DDay, as well as a parachute drop well West of the US landings.
Additionally, they were the first allied troops to enter Paris (officially, anyway - a few Yanks thought stuff'em and went in first).
Post by Pelican
Post by de chucka
Bay of Pigs
The Bay of Pigs was a CIA operation.
Precisely - a bunch of Cubans armed by foreigners with an ideological mission to take over their homeland. Exactly the same as the Communists in Vietnam.

What Pelican seems to be forgetting is that just as in 1940/41 nobody knew that Nazi Germany would eventually be defeated, "justifying" the carpet-bombing of German cities, similarly, in the 1960s there was no cause to suspect Communism would inevitably collapse. All we knew was that Communism was an avid mass-slayer of humans, from the ten million Ukrainians to the unknown millions in China (Cambodia's 3 million was yet to come) and that Communism was tightening its grip on the world - occupying half of Europe, spreading in Africa, and moving in on Asia.
The Communist threat was far, far more terrifying than the Nazi one had managed to become for both reasons of its greater longevity, the greater expanse of its conquests, and the larger scale of its atrocities.
Pelican
2018-05-14 07:19:42 UTC
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Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Post by de chucka
snip
  People don't invade their own country.
Of course they have e.g. Free French on D-Day,
The Free French had a lot to do with D-Day, you say? Providing the
cheese and wine, perhaps.
My great uncle arriving on a beach landing craft full of Free French.
The Free French troops had fought in North Africa, were mostly equipped with US gear, and a very small advance guard of them landed with the British on DDay, as well as a parachute drop well West of the US landings.
Additionally, they were the first allied troops to enter Paris (officially, anyway - a few Yanks thought stuff'em and went in first).
Quaint.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Post by de chucka
Bay of Pigs
The Bay of Pigs was a CIA operation.
Precisely - a bunch of Cubans armed by foreigners with an ideological mission to take over their homeland. Exactly the same as the Communists in Vietnam.
Bullshit. The CIA operation, fully supported by the US government,
ended up with the US getting its arse firmly kicked. The North
Vietnamese kicked the US arse, just as they kicked the French arse. No
"exactly the same nonsense", other than the US getting its arse kicked.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
What Pelican seems to be forgetting is that just as in 1940/41 nobody knew that Nazi Germany would eventually be defeated,
It was clear that Germany was defeated when the invasion was stopped by
the Soviets. The Germans certainly knew it. The Brits and the US had
no idea what was going on in Germany and the east, just as the Brits
thought, and still think, they played some sort of role in WW2.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
"justifying" the carpet-bombing of German cities,
That was simply revenge, permitted by the UK government by a
mass-murder. These days, it would be called a war crime. Apart from
achieving none of its objectives.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
similarly, in the 1960s there was no cause to suspect Communism would inevitably collapse.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
All we
Speak for yourself.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
knew was that Communism was an avid mass-slayer of humans, from the ten million Ukrainians to the unknown millions in China (Cambodia's 3 million was yet to come) and that Communism was tightening its grip on the world - occupying half of Europe, spreading in Africa, and moving in on Asia.
Tell me about them dominoes, again.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The Communist threat was far, far more terrifying than the Nazi one had managed to become for both reasons of its greater longevity, the greater expanse of its conquests, and the larger scale of its atrocities.
I get the sense that you are a deeply committed anti-communist. But
it's a pre-occupation with a past century. And the replacement was
terrorism, with the "war on terrorism". That seems to be dying a
natural death. The US is now engaged in lifting a trade war against
China as the current major objective. Never mind minor issues like
Global Warming, and some abo pop singer not winning the Eurovision
exercise of mindless drivel.

You keep up the good work. Onwards and upwards.
de chucka
2018-05-14 07:43:41 UTC
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Post by de chucka
snip
  People don't invade their own country.
Of course they have e.g. Free French on D-Day,
The Free French had a lot to do with D-Day, you say?  Providing the
cheese and wine, perhaps.
They invaded their own country
Post by de chucka
Bay of Pigs
The Bay of Pigs was a CIA operation.
So? it was Cubans invading their own country doesn't matter who planned it.

You screwed up again
Post by de chucka
snip
Pelican
2018-05-14 07:59:30 UTC
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Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
snip
  People don't invade their own country.
Of course they have e.g. Free French on D-Day,
The Free French had a lot to do with D-Day, you say?  Providing the
cheese and wine, perhaps.
They invaded their own country
Don't be so thick. People don't invade their own country. They were
fighting the invaders of their own country. Don't you understand English?
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
Bay of Pigs
The Bay of Pigs was a CIA operation.
So? it was Cubans invading their own country doesn't matter who planned it.
But it does, Blanche! It was a US invasion to rid Cuba of them awful
commies. A total mess.
Post by de chucka
You screwed up again
Don't be so stupid, stupid.
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
snip
de chucka
2018-05-14 08:10:17 UTC
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Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
snip
  People don't invade their own country.
Of course they have e.g. Free French on D-Day,
The Free French had a lot to do with D-Day, you say?  Providing the
cheese and wine, perhaps.
They invaded their own country
Don't be so thick.  People don't invade their own country.  They were
fighting the invaders of their own country.  Don't you understand English?
Are you claiming D-day wasn't an invasion?
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
Bay of Pigs
The Bay of Pigs was a CIA operation.
So? it was Cubans invading their own country doesn't matter who planned it.
But it does, Blanche!  It was a US invasion to rid Cuba of them awful
commies.
However the invaders were in the main Cuban, trying to overthrow Castro
to get their country back.
A total mess.
Post by de chucka
You screwed up again
Don't be so stupid, stupid.
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
snip
Pelican
2018-05-14 08:18:46 UTC
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Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
snip
  People don't invade their own country.
Of course they have e.g. Free French on D-Day,
The Free French had a lot to do with D-Day, you say?  Providing the
cheese and wine, perhaps.
They invaded their own country
Don't be so thick.  People don't invade their own country.  They were
fighting the invaders of their own country.  Don't you understand English?
Are you claiming D-day wasn't an invasion?
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
Bay of Pigs
The Bay of Pigs was a CIA operation.
So? it was Cubans invading their own country doesn't matter who planned it.
But it does, Blanche!  It was a US invasion to rid Cuba of them awful
commies.
However the invaders were in the main Cuban, trying to overthrow Castro
to get their country back.
It was a secret US operation, illegal under international law. Are you
a fuckwit, or what?

Go and sit in the corner. And stop sulking.
Post by de chucka
A total mess.
Post by de chucka
You screwed up again
Don't be so stupid, stupid.
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
snip
de chucka
2018-05-14 20:04:18 UTC
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Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
snip
  People don't invade their own country.
Of course they have e.g. Free French on D-Day,
The Free French had a lot to do with D-Day, you say?  Providing the
cheese and wine, perhaps.
They invaded their own country
Don't be so thick.  People don't invade their own country.  They were
fighting the invaders of their own country.  Don't you understand English?
Are you claiming D-day wasn't an invasion?
So that is one example of people invading their own country
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
Bay of Pigs
The Bay of Pigs was a CIA operation.
So? it was Cubans invading their own country doesn't matter who planned it.
But it does, Blanche!  It was a US invasion to rid Cuba of them awful
commies.
However the invaders were in the main Cuban, trying to overthrow
Castro to get their country back.
It was a secret US operation, illegal under international law.  Are you
a fuckwit, or what?
Using Cubans who were invading there own country, so that is no. 2
Go and sit in the corner.  And stop sulking.
Post by de chucka
A total mess.
Post by de chucka
You screwed up again
Don't be so stupid, stupid.
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
snip
Pelican
2018-05-14 20:36:38 UTC
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Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
snip
  People don't invade their own country.
Of course they have e.g. Free French on D-Day,
The Free French had a lot to do with D-Day, you say?  Providing
the cheese and wine, perhaps.
They invaded their own country
Don't be so thick.  People don't invade their own country.  They
were fighting the invaders of their own country.  Don't you
understand English?
Are you claiming D-day wasn't an invasion?
So that is one example of people invading their own country
No, stupid. People don't invade their own country.
de chucka
2018-05-14 21:02:01 UTC
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Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
snip
  People don't invade their own country.
Of course they have e.g. Free French on D-Day,
The Free French had a lot to do with D-Day, you say?  Providing
the cheese and wine, perhaps.
They invaded their own country
Don't be so thick.  People don't invade their own country.  They
were fighting the invaders of their own country.  Don't you
understand English?
Are you claiming D-day wasn't an invasion?
So that is one example of people invading their own country
No, stupid.  People don't invade their own country.
Poor pelican I have shown 2 examples of where it has occurred, that you
made an ignorant comment is your bad
Fran
2018-05-15 00:36:42 UTC
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Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
snip
  People don't invade their own country.
Of course they have e.g. Free French on D-Day,
The Free French had a lot to do with D-Day, you say?  Providing
the cheese and wine, perhaps.
They invaded their own country
Don't be so thick.  People don't invade their own country.  They
were fighting the invaders of their own country.  Don't you
understand English?
Are you claiming D-day wasn't an invasion?
So that is one example of people invading their own country
No, stupid.  People don't invade their own country.
Poor pelican I have shown 2 examples of where it has occurred, that you
made an ignorant comment is your bad
And you even gave him the clues so he could have googled. He walked
into your gloved fist even after those clues. :-))
MattB
2018-05-14 06:46:46 UTC
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On Mon, 14 May 2018 15:10:14 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further. There is now only one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. It is communist, although not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba. The US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq. And the half-arsed intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions. We are still in the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles. Bravo US. Some "plan", that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10 years previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own country.
Just like the Civil War in the US. It wasn't anything like an invasion.
People don't invade their own country.
It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in Vietnam left the Communists and their backers bereft of the means and motivation to carry on invading further nations in South East Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more than a decade later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country if something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and although they are still a single party state, they are allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR, but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh? Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter? Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
What type of government to you think best?
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Communism is not yet fully in the dustbin of history, thanks to die-hards in denial, but only the loons still believe it doesn't belong there....
Who is arguing that?
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
....leading us back to the question of justification - Communism was an ideology that was thoroughly antithetical to our values, and it proved as much through the mass-murder of many tens of millions of people from Poland and the Ukraine through central Asia to China, Korea, and Cambodia.
Like Nazi Germany, eh?
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Fighting Communism cost many hundreds of thousands of lives.
And was fundamentally a mistake because communism has collapsed
internally, not by war.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The question about "war" is - is it OK to cause the deaths of many hundreds of thousands for the sake of a political cause aimed at stopping an ideology that has killed many tens of millions?
Is that from Poli-Sci 101 at your kindy?
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The answer is a no-brainer to rational people.
There is only any debate among those who are too dim to think their way past the marxist indoctrination that is rampant in the Western world's educations systems and who insist on ignoring the reality in order to focus on out-of-context detail and obsolete ideologies.
Must be fascinating for those around you to witness the behaviour of a
closed mind in full flight.
Pelican
2018-05-14 07:26:19 UTC
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Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 15:10:14 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further. There is now only one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. It is communist, although not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba. The US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq. And the half-arsed intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions. We are still in the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles. Bravo US. Some "plan", that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10 years previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own country.
Just like the Civil War in the US. It wasn't anything like an invasion.
People don't invade their own country.
It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in Vietnam left the Communists and their backers bereft of the means and motivation to carry on invading further nations in South East Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more than a decade later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country if something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and although they are still a single party state, they are allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR, but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh? Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter? Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
What type of government to you think best?
A democracy, of course. It's shit-house, was it's way ahead of second
best. But, enough of trying to deflect attention from the subject -
"Musings on terrorism", by some non-entity who spends time putting out
burning cars when he could be at home usefully engaged watching football
on tv.
MattB
2018-05-14 17:26:18 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
On Mon, 14 May 2018 17:26:19 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 15:10:14 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further. There is now only one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. It is communist, although not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba. The US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq. And the half-arsed intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions. We are still in the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles. Bravo US. Some "plan", that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10 years previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own country.
Just like the Civil War in the US. It wasn't anything like an invasion.
People don't invade their own country.
It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in Vietnam left the Communists and their backers bereft of the means and motivation to carry on invading further nations in South East Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more than a decade later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country if something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and although they are still a single party state, they are allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR, but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh? Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter? Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
What type of government to you think best?
A democracy, of course. It's shit-house, was it's way ahead of second
best. But, enough of trying to deflect attention from the subject -
"Musings on terrorism", by some non-entity who spends time putting out
burning cars when he could be at home usefully engaged watching football
on tv.
I prefer a constitutional democracy. Are you suggesting pure
democracy or direct Democracy?
Pelican
2018-05-14 20:38:00 UTC
Reply
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Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 17:26:19 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 15:10:14 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further. There is now only one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. It is communist, although not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba. The US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq. And the half-arsed intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions. We are still in the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles. Bravo US. Some "plan", that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10 years previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own country.
Just like the Civil War in the US. It wasn't anything like an invasion.
People don't invade their own country.
It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in Vietnam left the Communists and their backers bereft of the means and motivation to carry on invading further nations in South East Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more than a decade later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country if something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and although they are still a single party state, they are allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR, but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh? Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter? Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
What type of government to you think best?
A democracy, of course. It's shit-house, was it's way ahead of second
best. But, enough of trying to deflect attention from the subject -
"Musings on terrorism", by some non-entity who spends time putting out
burning cars when he could be at home usefully engaged watching football
on tv.
I prefer a constitutional democracy. Are you suggesting pure
democracy or direct Democracy?
I would tell you if you had the remotest idea of what those words mean.
MattB
2018-05-14 20:51:09 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
On Tue, 15 May 2018 06:38:00 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 17:26:19 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 15:10:14 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further. There is now only one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. It is communist, although not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba. The US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq. And the half-arsed intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions. We are still in the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles. Bravo US. Some "plan", that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10 years previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own country.
Just like the Civil War in the US. It wasn't anything like an invasion.
People don't invade their own country.
It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in Vietnam left the Communists and their backers bereft of the means and motivation to carry on invading further nations in South East Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more than a decade later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country if something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and although they are still a single party state, they are allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR, but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh? Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter? Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
What type of government to you think best?
A democracy, of course. It's shit-house, was it's way ahead of second
best. But, enough of trying to deflect attention from the subject -
"Musings on terrorism", by some non-entity who spends time putting out
burning cars when he could be at home usefully engaged watching football
on tv.
I prefer a constitutional democracy. Are you suggesting pure
democracy or direct Democracy?
I would tell you if you had the remotest idea of what those words mean.
OK Ad Hom noted.

Why don't you just tell me in your own words then?
Pelican
2018-05-14 20:56:44 UTC
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Post by MattB
On Tue, 15 May 2018 06:38:00 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 17:26:19 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 15:10:14 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further. There is now only one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. It is communist, although not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba. The US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq. And the half-arsed intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions. We are still in the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles. Bravo US. Some "plan", that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10 years previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own country.
Just like the Civil War in the US. It wasn't anything like an invasion.
People don't invade their own country.
It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in Vietnam left the Communists and their backers bereft of the means and motivation to carry on invading further nations in South East Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more than a decade later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country if something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and although they are still a single party state, they are allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR, but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh? Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter? Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
What type of government to you think best?
A democracy, of course. It's shit-house, was it's way ahead of second
best. But, enough of trying to deflect attention from the subject -
"Musings on terrorism", by some non-entity who spends time putting out
burning cars when he could be at home usefully engaged watching football
on tv.
I prefer a constitutional democracy. Are you suggesting pure
democracy or direct Democracy?
I would tell you if you had the remotest idea of what those words mean.
OK Ad Hom noted.
Why don't you just tell me in your own words then?
I'm fat too polite, considerate, and careful not to hurt people's
feelings. Even when you demonstrate that you are a fuckwit. HTH

And that's all the attention you deserve, so bugger off.
de chucka
2018-05-14 21:00:33 UTC
Reply
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Post by MattB
On Tue, 15 May 2018 06:38:00 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 17:26:19 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 15:10:14 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further. There is now only one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. It is communist, although not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba. The US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq. And the half-arsed intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions. We are still in the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles. Bravo US. Some "plan", that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10 years previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own country.
Just like the Civil War in the US. It wasn't anything like an invasion.
People don't invade their own country.
It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in Vietnam left the Communists and their backers bereft of the means and motivation to carry on invading further nations in South East Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more than a decade later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country if something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and although they are still a single party state, they are allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR, but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh? Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter? Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
What type of government to you think best?
A democracy, of course. It's shit-house, was it's way ahead of second
best. But, enough of trying to deflect attention from the subject -
"Musings on terrorism", by some non-entity who spends time putting out
burning cars when he could be at home usefully engaged watching football
on tv.
I prefer a constitutional democracy. Are you suggesting pure
democracy or direct Democracy?
I would tell you if you had the remotest idea of what those words mean.
OK Ad Hom noted.
It's not an ad hom it is ignorance
Post by MattB
Why don't you just tell me in your own words then?
MattB
2018-05-14 21:08:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by de chucka
Post by MattB
On Tue, 15 May 2018 06:38:00 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 17:26:19 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 15:10:14 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further. There is now only one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. It is communist, although not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba. The US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq. And the half-arsed intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions. We are still in the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles. Bravo US. Some "plan", that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10 years previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own country.
Just like the Civil War in the US. It wasn't anything like an invasion.
People don't invade their own country.
It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in Vietnam left the Communists and their backers bereft of the means and motivation to carry on invading further nations in South East Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more than a decade later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country if something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and although they are still a single party state, they are allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR, but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh? Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter? Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
What type of government to you think best?
A democracy, of course. It's shit-house, was it's way ahead of second
best. But, enough of trying to deflect attention from the subject -
"Musings on terrorism", by some non-entity who spends time putting out
burning cars when he could be at home usefully engaged watching football
on tv.
I prefer a constitutional democracy. Are you suggesting pure
democracy or direct Democracy?
I would tell you if you had the remotest idea of what those words mean.
OK Ad Hom noted.
It's not an ad hom it is ignorance
OK. Just trying to understand his views. Not easy.
Post by de chucka
Post by MattB
Why don't you just tell me in your own words then?
de chucka
2018-05-14 21:19:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MattB
Post by de chucka
Post by MattB
On Tue, 15 May 2018 06:38:00 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 17:26:19 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 15:10:14 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further. There is now only one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. It is communist, although not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba. The US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq. And the half-arsed intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions. We are still in the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles. Bravo US. Some "plan", that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10 years previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own country.
Just like the Civil War in the US. It wasn't anything like an invasion.
People don't invade their own country.
It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in Vietnam left the Communists and their backers bereft of the means and motivation to carry on invading further nations in South East Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more than a decade later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country if something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and although they are still a single party state, they are allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR, but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh? Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter? Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
What type of government to you think best?
A democracy, of course. It's shit-house, was it's way ahead of second
best. But, enough of trying to deflect attention from the subject -
"Musings on terrorism", by some non-entity who spends time putting out
burning cars when he could be at home usefully engaged watching football
on tv.
I prefer a constitutional democracy. Are you suggesting pure
democracy or direct Democracy?
I would tell you if you had the remotest idea of what those words mean.
OK Ad Hom noted.
It's not an ad hom it is ignorance
OK. Just trying to understand his views.
Good luck

Not easy.
Post by MattB
Post by de chucka
Post by MattB
Why don't you just tell me in your own words then?
Pelican
2018-05-14 21:20:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MattB
Post by de chucka
Post by MattB
On Tue, 15 May 2018 06:38:00 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 17:26:19 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 15:10:14 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further. There is now only one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. It is communist, although not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba. The US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq. And the half-arsed intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions. We are still in the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles. Bravo US. Some "plan", that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10 years previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own country.
Just like the Civil War in the US. It wasn't anything like an invasion.
People don't invade their own country.
It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in Vietnam left the Communists and their backers bereft of the means and motivation to carry on invading further nations in South East Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more than a decade later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country if something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and although they are still a single party state, they are allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR, but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh? Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter? Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
What type of government to you think best?
A democracy, of course. It's shit-house, was it's way ahead of second
best. But, enough of trying to deflect attention from the subject -
"Musings on terrorism", by some non-entity who spends time putting out
burning cars when he could be at home usefully engaged watching football
on tv.
I prefer a constitutional democracy. Are you suggesting pure
democracy or direct Democracy?
I would tell you if you had the remotest idea of what those words mean.
OK Ad Hom noted.
It's not an ad hom it is ignorance
OK. Just trying to understand his views. Not easy.
Complex ideas are not easy, and clearly beyond you. Stay with stupid in
your safe zone, and you will both be ok.
de chucka
2018-05-14 21:24:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Pelican
Post by de chucka
Post by MattB
On Tue, 15 May 2018 06:38:00 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 17:26:19 +1000, Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 15:10:14 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where
the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South
was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further.  There is now only
one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam.  It is communist, although
not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba.  The
US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq.  And the half-arsed
intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions.  We are still in
the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian
catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles.  Bravo US.  Some "plan",
that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being
invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10
years previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own country.
Just like the Civil War in the US.  It wasn't anything like an
invasion.
     People don't invade their own country.
It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in Vietnam
left the Communists and their backers bereft of the means and
motivation to carry on invading further nations in South East
Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more than a
decade later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country if something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the
reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and
although they are still a single party state, they are
allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be
reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist
China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR,
but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh?  Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time
in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the
communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at
war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take
root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter?  Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
What type of government to you think best?
A democracy, of course.  It's shit-house, was it's way ahead of
second
best.  But, enough of trying to deflect attention from the subject -
"Musings on terrorism", by some non-entity who spends time putting out
burning cars when he could be at home usefully engaged watching football
on tv.
I prefer a constitutional democracy.  Are you suggesting pure
democracy or direct Democracy?
I would tell you if you had the remotest idea of what those words mean.
OK  Ad Hom noted.
It's not an ad hom it is ignorance
OK.  Just trying to understand his views.  Not easy.
Complex ideas are not easy, and clearly beyond you.
At least he understands the concepts of pure
democracy and direct Democracy and he's a seppo
Stay with stupid in
Post by Pelican
your safe zone, and you will both be ok.
MattB
2018-05-14 21:36:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by de chucka
Post by Pelican
Post by de chucka
Post by MattB
On Tue, 15 May 2018 06:38:00 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 17:26:19 +1000, Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 15:10:14 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where
the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South
was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further.  There is now only
one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam.  It is communist, although
not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba.  The
US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the
invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq.  And the half-arsed
intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions.  We are still in
the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian
catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles.  Bravo US.  Some "plan",
that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being
invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10
years previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own country.
Just like the Civil War in the US.  It wasn't anything like an
invasion.
     People don't invade their own country.
It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in Vietnam
left the Communists and their backers bereft of the means and
motivation to carry on invading further nations in South East
Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more than a
decade later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country if something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the
reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and
although they are still a single party state, they are
allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be
reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist
China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR,
but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh?  Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time
in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the
communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at
war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take
root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter?  Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
What type of government to you think best?
A democracy, of course.  It's shit-house, was it's way ahead of
second
best.  But, enough of trying to deflect attention from the subject -
"Musings on terrorism", by some non-entity who spends time putting out
burning cars when he could be at home usefully engaged watching football
on tv.
I prefer a constitutional democracy.  Are you suggesting pure
democracy or direct Democracy?
I would tell you if you had the remotest idea of what those words mean.
OK  Ad Hom noted.
It's not an ad hom it is ignorance
OK.  Just trying to understand his views.  Not easy.
Complex ideas are not easy, and clearly beyond you.
At least he understands the concepts of pure
democracy and direct Democracy and he's a seppo
Not all 'seppo's' are stupid. :-))
Post by de chucka
Stay with stupid in
Post by Pelican
your safe zone, and you will both be ok.
Pelican
2018-05-14 21:56:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MattB
Post by de chucka
Post by Pelican
Post by de chucka
Post by MattB
On Tue, 15 May 2018 06:38:00 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 17:26:19 +1000, Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 15:10:14 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where
the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South
was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further.  There is now only
one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam.  It is communist, although
not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba.  The
US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the
invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq.  And the half-arsed
intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions.  We are still in
the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian
catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles.  Bravo US.  Some "plan",
that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being
invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10
years previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own country.
Just like the Civil War in the US.  It wasn't anything like an
invasion.
     People don't invade their own country.
It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in Vietnam
left the Communists and their backers bereft of the means and
motivation to carry on invading further nations in South East
Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more than a
decade later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country if
something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the
reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and
although they are still a single party state, they are
allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be
reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist
China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR,
but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh?  Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time
in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the
communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at
war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take
root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter?  Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
What type of government to you think best?
A democracy, of course.  It's shit-house, was it's way ahead of
second
best.  But, enough of trying to deflect attention from the subject -
"Musings on terrorism", by some non-entity who spends time putting out
burning cars when he could be at home usefully engaged watching football
on tv.
I prefer a constitutional democracy.  Are you suggesting pure
democracy or direct Democracy?
I would tell you if you had the remotest idea of what those words mean.
OK  Ad Hom noted.
It's not an ad hom it is ignorance
OK.  Just trying to understand his views.  Not easy.
Complex ideas are not easy, and clearly beyond you.
At least he understands the concepts of pure
democracy and direct Democracy and he's a seppo
Not all 'seppo's' are stupid. :-))
Just enough to elect the POTUS. More than enough.
Post by MattB
Post by de chucka
Post by Pelican
Stay with stupid in
your safe zone, and you will both be ok.
MattB
2018-05-14 22:09:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 15 May 2018 07:56:31 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
Post by de chucka
Post by Pelican
Post by de chucka
Post by MattB
On Tue, 15 May 2018 06:38:00 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 17:26:19 +1000, Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 15:10:14 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where
the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South
was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further.  There is now only
one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam.  It is communist, although
not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba.  The
US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the
invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq.  And the half-arsed
intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions.  We are still in
the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian
catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles.  Bravo US.  Some "plan",
that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being
invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10
years previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own
country.
Just like the Civil War in the US.  It wasn't anything like an
invasion.
     People don't invade their own country.
It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in Vietnam
left the Communists and their backers bereft of the means and
motivation to carry on invading further nations in South East
Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more than a
decade later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country if
something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the
reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and
although they are still a single party state, they are
allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be
reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist
China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR,
but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh?  Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time
in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the
communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at
war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take
root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter?  Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally
incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist
countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
What type of government to you think best?
A democracy, of course.  It's shit-house, was it's way ahead of
second
best.  But, enough of trying to deflect attention from the subject -
"Musings on terrorism", by some non-entity who spends time putting out
burning cars when he could be at home usefully engaged watching football
on tv.
I prefer a constitutional democracy.  Are you suggesting pure
democracy or direct Democracy?
I would tell you if you had the remotest idea of what those words mean.
OK  Ad Hom noted.
It's not an ad hom it is ignorance
OK.  Just trying to understand his views.  Not easy.
Complex ideas are not easy, and clearly beyond you.
At least he understands the concepts of pure
democracy and direct Democracy and he's a seppo
Not all 'seppo's' are stupid. :-))
Just enough to elect the POTUS. More than enough.
You sound like a Trump supporter.
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
Post by de chucka
Post by Pelican
Stay with stupid in
your safe zone, and you will both be ok.
Pelican
2018-05-14 22:14:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MattB
You sound like a Trump supporter.
Trump? He's the fuckwit primarily responsible for lighting the fuse
that has killed some 50+ Palestinians so far, and wounded several thousand.

Now, bugger off.
Hmmm
2018-05-14 22:11:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MattB
Not all 'seppo's' are stupid. :-))
Agreed! Definitely not all!
But that does not mean you aren't!
WTF are you still doing in aus.politics looking for a fight.
It is obvious that you can't contribute anything useful nor interesting.

FOAD!
--
USeless wankers wank away!
MattB
2018-05-15 04:09:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 14 May 2018 22:11:55 +0000 (UTC), Hmmm
Post by Hmmm
Post by MattB
Not all 'seppo's' are stupid. :-))
Agreed! Definitely not all!
But that does not mean you aren't!
WTF are you still doing in aus.politics looking for a fight.
It is obvious that you can't contribute anything useful nor interesting.
FOAD!
Whatever.

For the record The post went like this

"
Pelican
Post by Hmmm
Post by MattB
Post by MattB
Post by Pelican
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
MattB
Post by Hmmm
Post by MattB
Post by MattB
What type of government to you think best?
Pelican
Post by Hmmm
Post by MattB
A democracy, of course. It's shit-house, was it's way ahead of second
best. But, enough of trying to deflect attention from the subject -
"Musings on terrorism", by some non-entity who spends time putting out
burning cars when he could be at home usefully engaged watching football
on tv.
MattB
Post by Hmmm
I prefer a constitutional democracy. Are you suggesting pure
democracy or direct Democracy?
Pelican
I would tell you if you had the remotest idea of what those words
mean."

End.

Now how is this looking for a fight?

Looks to be asking for clarification.

The word 'Democracy' is a little broad in scope. It is like using the
word 'Gun Control'. What do you mean by that term.

Pelican
2018-05-14 21:55:24 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by de chucka
Post by Pelican
Post by de chucka
Post by MattB
On Tue, 15 May 2018 06:38:00 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 17:26:19 +1000, Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 15:10:14 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where
the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further
South was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further.  There is now only
one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam.  It is communist,
although not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba.
The US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the
invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq.  And the half-arsed
intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions.  We are still
in the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian
catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles.  Bravo US.  Some "plan",
that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being
invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10
years previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own country.
Just like the Civil War in the US.  It wasn't anything like an
invasion.
     People don't invade their own country.
It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in
Vietnam left the Communists and their backers bereft of the
means and motivation to carry on invading further nations in
South East Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more
than a decade later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country if something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the
reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and
although they are still a single party state, they are
allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be
reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist
China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR,
but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh?  Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time
in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the
communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at
war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take
root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter?  Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
What type of government to you think best?
A democracy, of course.  It's shit-house, was it's way ahead of
second
best.  But, enough of trying to deflect attention from the subject -
"Musings on terrorism", by some non-entity who spends time putting out
burning cars when he could be at home usefully engaged watching football
on tv.
I prefer a constitutional democracy.  Are you suggesting pure
democracy or direct Democracy?
I would tell you if you had the remotest idea of what those words mean.
OK  Ad Hom noted.
It's not an ad hom it is ignorance
OK.  Just trying to understand his views.  Not easy.
Complex ideas are not easy, and clearly beyond you.
At least he understands the concepts of pure
democracy and direct Democracy and he's a seppo
Care to provide your version of any facts to support your claims about
his understanding? Hint: being a seppo doesn't count for anything.
Post by de chucka
Post by Pelican
 Stay with stupid in
your safe zone, and you will both be ok.
de chucka
2018-05-14 22:05:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Pelican
Post by de chucka
Post by Pelican
Post by de chucka
Post by MattB
On Tue, 15 May 2018 06:38:00 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 17:26:19 +1000, Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 15:10:14 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country,
where the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further
South was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further.  There is now only
one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam.  It is communist,
although not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba.
The US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the
invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq.  And the half-arsed
intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions.  We are still
in the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the
Syrian catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles.  Bravo US.  Some "plan",
that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being
invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10
years previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own country.
Just like the Civil War in the US.  It wasn't anything like
an invasion.
     People don't invade their own country.
It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in
Vietnam left the Communists and their backers bereft of the
means and motivation to carry on invading further nations in
South East Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more
than a decade later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country
if something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the
reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and
although they are still a single party state, they are
allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be
reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist
China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR,
but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh?  Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time
in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the
communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at
war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take
root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter?  Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
What type of government to you think best?
A democracy, of course.  It's shit-house, was it's way ahead of
second
best.  But, enough of trying to deflect attention from the subject -
"Musings on terrorism", by some non-entity who spends time putting out
burning cars when he could be at home usefully engaged watching football
on tv.
I prefer a constitutional democracy.  Are you suggesting pure
democracy or direct Democracy?
I would tell you if you had the remotest idea of what those words mean.
OK  Ad Hom noted.
It's not an ad hom it is ignorance
OK.  Just trying to understand his views.  Not easy.
Complex ideas are not easy, and clearly beyond you.
At least he understands the concepts of pure
democracy and direct Democracy and he's a seppo
Care to provide your version of any facts to support your claims about
his understanding?  Hint: being a seppo doesn't count for anything.
All I can provide is my previous 'conversations' with him in threads
about the election of the POTUS on TPG
Pelican
2018-05-14 22:18:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by de chucka
Post by Pelican
Post by de chucka
At least he understands the concepts of pure
democracy and direct Democracy and he's a seppo
Care to provide your version of any facts to support your claims about
his understanding?  Hint: being a seppo doesn't count for anything.
All I can provide is my previous 'conversations' with him in threads
about the election of the POTUS on TPG
Ok - no facts at all. What a surprise.
de chucka
2018-05-14 22:23:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by de chucka
Post by Pelican
Post by de chucka
At least he understands the concepts of pure
democracy and direct Democracy and he's a seppo
Care to provide your version of any facts to support your claims
about his understanding?  Hint: being a seppo doesn't count for
anything.
All I can provide is my previous 'conversations' with him in threads
about the election of the POTUS on TPG
Ok - no facts at all.  What a surprise.
What facts would satisfy you and as you don't know what pure democracy
or direct democracy is how would you know id Matts comments were correct?
Pelican
2018-05-14 22:42:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by de chucka
Post by de chucka
Post by Pelican
Post by de chucka
At least he understands the concepts of pure
democracy and direct Democracy and he's a seppo
Care to provide your version of any facts to support your claims
about his understanding?  Hint: being a seppo doesn't count for
anything.
All I can provide is my previous 'conversations' with him in threads
about the election of the POTUS on TPG
Ok - no facts at all.  What a surprise.
What facts would satisfy you and as you don't know what pure democracy
or direct democracy is how would you know id Matts comments were correct?
Evasive. You made a stupid claim, stupid, that you can't support. Now,
you want me to tell you what your fellow stupid was on about. Neither
of you has the foggiest about the concepts that you and your fellow
stupid are gibbering about.

So, enough of your nonsense. Bugger off.
MattB
2018-05-14 21:37:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 15 May 2018 07:20:56 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
Post by de chucka
Post by MattB
On Tue, 15 May 2018 06:38:00 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 17:26:19 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 15:10:14 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further. There is now only one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. It is communist, although not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba. The US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq. And the half-arsed intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions. We are still in the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles. Bravo US. Some "plan", that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10 years previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own country.
Just like the Civil War in the US. It wasn't anything like an invasion.
People don't invade their own country.
It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in Vietnam left the Communists and their backers bereft of the means and motivation to carry on invading further nations in South East Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more than a decade later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country if something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and although they are still a single party state, they are allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR, but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh? Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter? Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
What type of government to you think best?
A democracy, of course. It's shit-house, was it's way ahead of second
best. But, enough of trying to deflect attention from the subject -
"Musings on terrorism", by some non-entity who spends time putting out
burning cars when he could be at home usefully engaged watching football
on tv.
I prefer a constitutional democracy. Are you suggesting pure
democracy or direct Democracy?
I would tell you if you had the remotest idea of what those words mean.
OK Ad Hom noted.
It's not an ad hom it is ignorance
OK. Just trying to understand his views. Not easy.
Complex ideas are not easy, and clearly beyond you. Stay with stupid in
your safe zone, and you will both be ok.
I would say you are unable to say what you mean in this case. That or
afraid.
Pelican
2018-05-14 21:58:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MattB
On Tue, 15 May 2018 07:20:56 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
Post by de chucka
Post by MattB
On Tue, 15 May 2018 06:38:00 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 17:26:19 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 15:10:14 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further. There is now only one State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. It is communist, although not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba. The US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq. And the half-arsed intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions. We are still in the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles. Bravo US. Some "plan", that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10 years previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own country.
Just like the Civil War in the US. It wasn't anything like an invasion.
People don't invade their own country.
It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in Vietnam left the Communists and their backers bereft of the means and motivation to carry on invading further nations in South East Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more than a decade later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country if something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the reality that communism leads to economic impoverishment and although they are still a single party state, they are allowing free trade and other aspects of capitalism to be reborn. The collapse of communist Vietnam (and communist China) has not been as dramatic as the collapse of the USSR, but it is progressing at a measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh? Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time in Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at war with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter? Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
What type of government to you think best?
A democracy, of course. It's shit-house, was it's way ahead of second
best. But, enough of trying to deflect attention from the subject -
"Musings on terrorism", by some non-entity who spends time putting out
burning cars when he could be at home usefully engaged watching football
on tv.
I prefer a constitutional democracy. Are you suggesting pure
democracy or direct Democracy?
I would tell you if you had the remotest idea of what those words mean.
OK Ad Hom noted.
It's not an ad hom it is ignorance
OK. Just trying to understand his views. Not easy.
Complex ideas are not easy, and clearly beyond you. Stay with stupid in
your safe zone, and you will both be ok.
I would say you are unable to say what you mean in this case.
Would you? How interesting.
Post by MattB
That or afraid.
Ok. You got me good. I'm trembling in me boots. Happy? Now, bugger off.
Pelican
2018-05-14 21:18:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by MattB
On Tue, 15 May 2018 06:38:00 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 17:26:19 +1000, Pelican
Post by MattB
On Mon, 14 May 2018 15:10:14 +1000, Pelican
Post by Pelican
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Post by Pelican
Vietnam is now an undivided and independent country, where the post-WW2
war there achieved nothing.
Rubbish. Communism was bled dry and its spread further South
was stopped in its tracks, as per the US plan.
You might care to look a little further.  There is now only one
State,
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam.  It is communist, although
not quite
the same version of communism as in North Korea or Cuba.  The
US "plan"
was a complete and utter shambles, cooked up solely by the US.
That's the same US that cooked up the invasion of Cuba, the invasion of
Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq.  And the half-arsed
intervention
in Syria.
Vietnam and Cuba withstood the US invasions.  We are still in the
aftermath of the Afghani and Iraqi invasions, and the Syrian catastrophe.
All a complete and utter shambles.  Bravo US.  Some "plan", that!
There was no "US invasion" of Vietnam. The country was being
invaded by communists, same as they had tried in Korea 10 years
previously.
In both cases, the north coming to the south was in their own country.
Just like the Civil War in the US.  It wasn't anything like an
invasion.
    People don't invade their own country.
It you bother to look at a map, you might notice that the US is some
distance from both Korea and Vietnam.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Korea did a lot of damage, but 15 years of fighting in Vietnam
left the Communists and their backers bereft of the means and
motivation to carry on invading further nations in South East
Asia, and the USSR itself collapsed not much more than a decade
later.
You will never know what might have happened in any country if something
or other had not happened.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
And of course, Vietnam is still coming to grips with the reality
that communism leads to economic impoverishment and although
they are still a single party state, they are allowing free
trade and other aspects of capitalism to be reborn. The collapse
of communist Vietnam (and communist China) has not been as
dramatic as the collapse of the USSR, but it is progressing at a
measured, steady, Asian-style pace.
PRC is collapsing, eh?  Just arrived on planet Earth, have you.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
The fight in Vietnam was not about the US wanting to run the place,
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
it was the same kind of fight that happened at the same time in
Indonesia when the free world helped Suharto unseat the
communist-inclined Sukarno.
Bullshit.
Post by Lions Growl of Butchers Foul
Nobody was trying to run Indonesia, either, we just were at war
with communism and fighting it wherever it tried to take root.
What are you, an anti-communist nutter?  Communism has collapsed
internally in most countries where is existed, largely through the
incompetence and the corruption of their governments.
Capitalist countries have governments which are equally
incompetent and
corrupt, but the key difference is that mistakes in communist countries
are disastrous, whereas in capitalist countries the mistakes are not.
What type of government to you think best?
A democracy, of course.  It's shit-house, was it's way ahead of second
best.  But, enough of trying to deflect attention from the subject -
"Musings on terrorism", by some non-entity who spends time putting out
burning cars when he could be at home usefully engaged watching football
on tv.
I prefer a constitutional democracy.  Are you suggesting pure
democracy or direct Democracy?
I would tell you if you had the remotest idea of what those words mean.
OK  Ad Hom noted.
It's not an ad hom it is your ignorance
Who said that you were invariably wrong?
de chucka
2018-05-14 21:21:13 UTC
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Post by Pelican
Post by de chucka
Post by MattB
Post by Pelican
I would tell you if you had the remotest idea of what those words mean.
OK  Ad Hom noted.
It's not an ad hom it is ignorance
Who said that you were invariably wrong?
juvo
Pelican
2018-05-14 21:59:46 UTC
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Post by Pelican
Post by MattB
Post by Pelican
I would tell you if you had the remotest idea of what those words mean.
OK  Ad Hom noted.
It's not an ad hom it is your ignorance
Who said that you were invariably wrong?
juvo
Wrong, again.
Fran
2018-05-14 04:46:00 UTC
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Post by de chucka
I was discussing the latest attacks in Indonesia with a couple of mates
last night. My point was how could anybody could kill people in the name
of religion.
That thinking is too narrow, It's not just religious nutters who kill.
It's nutters who fixate on some believe of some sort who do the killing.
That can be Nazis who kill or alt.right nutters who kill blacks or...

It was raised that my Grandfather left Australia in 1915 to
Post by de chucka
kill people in Europe in the name of the Crown. When I raised that he
was only killing other soldiers it was quickly mentioned the history of
civilians being killed in the name of 'something'. The Romans, Greeks,
Vlad the Impaler, Genghis Khan, American Civil War, bombing of cities in
WW2 etc.
This is not a defence of terrorism rather a comment that killing
civilians in the name of 'something' no matter what is WRONG. At least
soldiers know what they are getting into and in most cases put their
hand up for it.
Yep. Nutters of all sorts are dangerous.
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