Discussion:
Eisenhower's Holocaust
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A***@somewhere.com
2003-12-30 06:10:23 UTC
Permalink
Eisenhower's Holocaust - His Slaughter Of 1.7 Million Germans
http://www.rense.com/general46/germ.htm
Author Not Known
12-28-03

"God, I hate the Germans..." (Dwight David Eisenhower in a letter to his
wife in September, 1944)

First, I want you to picture something in your mind. You are a German
soldier who survived through the battles of World II. You were not really
politically involved, and your parents were also indifferent to politics,
but suddenly your education was interrupted and you were drafted into the
German army and told where to fight. Now, in the Spring of 1945, you see
that your country has been demolished by the Allies, your cities lie in
ruins, and half of your family has been killed or is missing. Now, your unit
is being surrounded, and it is finally time to surrender. The fact is, there
is no other choice.

It has been a long, cold winter. The German army rations have not been all
that good, but you managed to survive. Spring came late that year, with
weeks of cold rainy weather in demolished Europe. Your boots are tattered,
your uniform is falling apart, and the stress of surrender and the confusion
that lies ahead for you has your guts being torn out. Now, it is over, you
must surrender or be shot. This is war and the real world.

You are taken as a German Prisoner of War into American hands. The Americans
had 200 such Prisoner of War camps scattered across Germany. You are marched
to a compound surrounded with barbed wire fences as far as the eye can see.
Thousands upon thousands of your fellow German soldiers are already in this
make-shift corral. You see no evidence of a latrine and after three hours of
marching through the mud of the spring rain, the comfort of a latrine is
upper-most in your mind. You are driven through the heavily guarded gate and
find yourself free to move about, and you begin the futile search for the
latrine. Finally, you ask for directions, and are informed that no such
luxury exists.

No more time. You find a place and squat. First you were exhausted, then
hungry, then fearful, and now; dirty. Hundreds more German prisoners are
behind you, pushing you on, jamming you together and every one of them
searching for the latrine as soon as they could do so. Now, late in the day,
there is no space to even squat, much less sit down to rest your weary legs.
None of the prisoners, you quickly learn, have had any food that day, in
fact there was no food while in the American hands that any surviving
prisoner can testify to. No one has eaten any food for weeks, and they are
slowly starving and dying. But, they can't do this to us! There are the
Geneva Convention rules for the treatment of Prisoners of War. There must be
some mistake! Hope continues through the night, with no shelter from the
cold, biting rain.

Your uniform is sopping wet, and formerly brave soldiers are weeping all
around you, as buddy after buddy dies from the lack of food, water, sleep
and shelter from the weather. After weeks of this, your own hope bleeds off
into despair, and finally you actually begin to envy those who, having
surrendered first manhood and then dignity, now also surrender life itself.
More hopeless weeks go by. Finally, the last thing you remember is falling,
unable to get up, and lying face down in the mud mixed with the excrement of
those who have gone before.

Your body will be picked up long after it is cold, and taken to a special
tent where your clothing is stripped off. So that you will be quickly
forgotten, and never again identified, your dog-tag is snipped in half and
your body along with those of your fellow soldiers are covered with
chemicals for rapid decomposition and buried. You were not one of the
exceptions, for more than one million seven hundred thousand German
Prisoners of War died from a deliberate policy of extermination by
starvation, exposure, and disease, under direct orders of the General Dwight
David Eisenhower.

One month before the end of World War 11, General Eisenhower issued special
orders concerning the treatment of German Prisoners and specific in the
language of those orders was this statement,

"Prison enclosures are to provide no shelter or other comforts."

Eisenhower biographer Stephen Ambrose, who was given access to the
Eisenhower personal letters, states that he proposed to exterminate the
entire German General Staff, thousands of people, after the war.

Eisenhower, in his personal letters, did not merely hate the Nazi Regime,
and the few who imposed its will down from the top, but that HE HATED THE
GERMAN PEOPLE AS A RACE. It was his personal intent to destroy as many of
them as he could, and one way was to wipe out as many prisoners of war as
possible.

Of course, that was illegal under International law, so he issued an order
on March 10, 1945 and verified by his initials on a cable of that date, that
German Prisoners of War be predesignated as "Disarmed Enemy Forces" called
in these reports as DEF. He ordered that these Germans did not fall under
the Geneva Rules, and were not to be fed or given any water or medical
attention. The Swiss Red Cross was not to inspect the camps, for under the
DEF classification, they had no such authority or jurisdiction.

Months after the war was officially over, Eisenhower's special German DEF
camps were still in operation forcing the men into confinement, but denying
that they were prisoners. As soon as the war was over, General George Patton
simply turned his prisoners loose to fend for themselves and find their way
home as best they could. Eisenhower was furious, and issued a specific order
to Patton, to turn these men over to the DEF camps. Knowing Patton as we do
from history, we know that these orders were largely ignored, and it may
well be that Patton's untimely and curious death may have been a result of
what he knew about these wretched Eisenhower DEF camps.

The book, OTHER LOSSES, found its way into the hands of a Canadian news
reporter, Peter Worthington, of the OTTAWA SUN. He did his own research
through contacts he had in Canada, and reported in his column on September
12,1989 the following, in part:

"...it is hard to escape the conclusion that Dwight Eisenhower was a war
criminal of epic proportions. His (DEF) policy killed more Germans in peace
than were killed in the European Theater."

"For years we have blamed the 1.7 million missing German POW's on the
Russians. Until now, no one dug too deeply ... Witnesses and survivors have
been interviewed by the author; one Allied officer compared the American
camps to Buchenwald."

It is known, that the Allies had sufficient stockpiles of food and medicine
to care for these German soldiers. This was deliberately and intentionally
denied them. Many men died of gangrene from frostbite due to deliberate
exposure. Local German people who offered these men food, were denied.
General Patton's Third Army was the only command in the European Theater to
release significant numbers of Germans.

Others, such as Omar Bradley and General J.C.H. Lee, Commander of Com Z,
tried, and ordered the release of prisoners within a week of the war's end.
However, a SHAEF Order, signed by Eisenhower, countermanded them on May
15th.

Does that make you angry? What will it take to get the average apathetic
American involved in saving his country from such traitors at the top?
Thirty years ago, amid the high popularity of Eisenhower, a book was written
setting out the political and moral philosophy; of Dwight David Eisenhower
called, THE POLITICIAN, by Robert Welch. This year is the 107th Anniversary
of Eisenhower's birth in Denison, Texas on October 14, 1890, the son of
Jacob David Eisenhower and his wife Ida. Everyone is all excited about the
celebration of this landmark in the history of "this American patriot."
Senator Robert Dole, in honor of the Commander of the American Death Camps,
proposed that Washington's Dulles Airport be renamed the Eisenhower Airport!

The UNITED STATES MINT in Philadelphia, PA is actually issuing a special
Eisenhower Centennial Silver Dollar for only $25 each. They will only mint 4
million of these collector's items, and veteran's magazines are promoting
these coins under the slogan, "Remember the Man...Remember the Times..."
Pardon me if I regurgitate!

There will be some veterans who will not be buying these coins. Two will be
Col. James Mason and Col. Charles Beasley who were in the U.S. Army Medical
Corps who published a paper on the Eisenhower Death Camps in 1950. They
stated in part:

"Huddled close together for warmth, behind the barbed wire was a most
awesome sight; nearly 100,000 haggard, apathetic, dirty, gaunt,
blank-staring men clad in dirty gray uniforms, and standing ankle deep in
mud ... water was a major problem, yet only 200 yards away the River Rhine
was running bank-full."

Another Veteran, who will not be buying any of the Eisenhower Silver Dollars
is Martin Brech of Mahopac, New York, a semi-retired professor of philosophy
at Mercy College in Dobbs Ferry, NY. In 1945, Brech was an 18 year old
Private First Class in Company C of the 14th Infantry, assigned as a guard
and interpreter at the Eisenhower Death Camp at Andernach, along the Rhine
River. He stated for SPOTLIGHT, February 12, 1990:

"My protests (regarding treatment of the German DEF'S) were met with
hostility or indifference, and when I threw our ample rations to them over
the barbed wire. I was threatened, making it clear that it was our
deliberate policy not to adequately feed them."

"When they caught me throwing C- Rations over the fence, they threatened me
with imprisonment. One Captain told me that he would shoot me if he saw me
again tossing food to the Germans ... Some of the men were really only boys
13 years of age...Some of the prisoners were old men drafted by Hitler in
his last ditch stand ... I understand that average weight of the prisoners
at Andernach was 90 pounds...I have received threats ... Nevertheless,
this...has liberated me, for I may now be heard when I relate the horrible
atrocity I witnessed as a prison guard for one of 'Ike's death camps' along
the Rhine." (Betty Lou Smith Hanson)

Note: Remember the photo of Ike's West Point yearbook picture when he was
dubbed "IKE, THE TERRIBLE SWEDISH JEW"? By the way, he was next, or nearly
so, to the last in his class. This article was first printed in 1990, but we
thought it was meaningful to reprint it now.

Note: During Cadet Eisenhower's time at West Point Academy, Eisenhower was
summoned to the office of the headmaster and was asked some pointed
questions. At the time, it was routine procedure to test a cadet's blood to
insure White racial integrity.

Apparently, there was a question of Eisenhower's racial lineage and this was
brought to Eisenhower's attention by the headmaster. When asked if he was
part Oriental, Eisenhower replied in the negative. After some discussion,
Eisenhower admitted having Jewish background. The headmaster then reportedly
said, "That's where you get your Oriental blood?" Although he was allowed to
remain at the academy, word got around since this was a time in history when
non-Whites were not allowed into the academy. Note - The issue of
Eisenhower's little-known Jewish background in academically essential in
understanding his psychopathic hatred of German men, women and children.

Later, in Eisenhower's West Point Military Academy graduating class
yearbook, published in 1915, Eisenhower is identified as a "terrible Swedish
Jew."

Wherever Eisenhower went during his military career, Eisenhower's Jewish
background and secondary manifesting behavior was a concern to his fellow
officers. During World War II when Col. Eisenhower was working for Gen.
Douglas MacArthur in the South Pacific, MacArthur protested to his superiors
in Washington (DC) that Eisenhower was incompetent and that he did not want
Eisenhower on his staff.

In 1943, Washington not only transferred Col. Eisenhower to Europe but
promoted him over more than 30 more experienced senior officers to five star
general and placed him in charge of all the US forces in Europe.

Thus it comes as no surprise that General George Patton, a real Aryan
warrior, hated Eisenhower.

--

JimB
http://www.geocities.com/UAM01
Union Against Multi-Culty
Heidi Graw
2003-12-30 01:21:10 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Eisenhower's Holocaust - His Slaughter Of 1.7 Million Germans
http://www.rense.com/general46/germ.htm
Author Not Known
12-28-03
Author unknown? And I'm supposed to take this as a credible account? Now,
I don't have information about what happened in *all* American POW camps,
but I can tell you about ONE German youth...a 17-year old teenager who tried
to defend his home city, Berlin, in its last days the best way he knew how:
He kept his eyes closed each time he pulled the trigger of his rifle. He
didn't want to know if he actually would kill anyone. This young man was my
father. He thanked his lucky stars that the Americans picked him up and
hauled him into an American POW camp. ;-)

Dad told me the camp was so poorly secured he managed to escape seven times.
Of course, he did get picked up every time he left camp without
authorization. For some reason, the Americans liked this affable young man
and allowed him to drive the officers around in the Army jeeps. He thought
this was way cool! Once, he even took a jeep for a spin outside of the
prison camp. ;-) Exasperated about my fathers continuing escapes, the
Americans finally let him go claiming, "Anyone that desperate to get back
home to his family deserves to be freed."

For years, after the war, when we lived in Hamburg, my Dad would go to the
harbour to invite American sailors to his home for dinner to meet his family
and to practise speaking English. An American soldier married my Dad's
sister and whisked her off to the USA. My other Berlin relatives routinely
visited American clubs and made many friends there. They were greatly
saddened when the Americans finally left their city and closed down their
clubs.

Anyway, just one family's experience with the American occupiers. ;-)

Take care,
Heidi
Post by A***@somewhere.com
"God, I hate the Germans..." (Dwight David Eisenhower in a letter to his
wife in September, 1944)
First, I want you to picture something in your mind. You are a German
soldier who survived through the battles of World II. You were not really
politically involved, and your parents were also indifferent to politics,
but suddenly your education was interrupted and you were drafted into the
German army and told where to fight. Now, in the Spring of 1945, you see
that your country has been demolished by the Allies, your cities lie in
ruins, and half of your family has been killed or is missing. Now, your unit
is being surrounded, and it is finally time to surrender. The fact is, there
is no other choice.
It has been a long, cold winter. The German army rations have not been all
that good, but you managed to survive. Spring came late that year, with
weeks of cold rainy weather in demolished Europe. Your boots are tattered,
your uniform is falling apart, and the stress of surrender and the confusion
that lies ahead for you has your guts being torn out. Now, it is over, you
must surrender or be shot. This is war and the real world.
You are taken as a German Prisoner of War into American hands. The Americans
had 200 such Prisoner of War camps scattered across Germany. You are marched
to a compound surrounded with barbed wire fences as far as the eye can see.
Thousands upon thousands of your fellow German soldiers are already in this
make-shift corral. You see no evidence of a latrine and after three hours of
marching through the mud of the spring rain, the comfort of a latrine is
upper-most in your mind. You are driven through the heavily guarded gate and
find yourself free to move about, and you begin the futile search for the
latrine. Finally, you ask for directions, and are informed that no such
luxury exists.
No more time. You find a place and squat. First you were exhausted, then
hungry, then fearful, and now; dirty. Hundreds more German prisoners are
behind you, pushing you on, jamming you together and every one of them
searching for the latrine as soon as they could do so. Now, late in the day,
there is no space to even squat, much less sit down to rest your weary legs.
None of the prisoners, you quickly learn, have had any food that day, in
fact there was no food while in the American hands that any surviving
prisoner can testify to. No one has eaten any food for weeks, and they are
slowly starving and dying. But, they can't do this to us! There are the
Geneva Convention rules for the treatment of Prisoners of War. There must be
some mistake! Hope continues through the night, with no shelter from the
cold, biting rain.
Your uniform is sopping wet, and formerly brave soldiers are weeping all
around you, as buddy after buddy dies from the lack of food, water, sleep
and shelter from the weather. After weeks of this, your own hope bleeds off
into despair, and finally you actually begin to envy those who, having
surrendered first manhood and then dignity, now also surrender life itself.
More hopeless weeks go by. Finally, the last thing you remember is falling,
unable to get up, and lying face down in the mud mixed with the excrement of
those who have gone before.
Your body will be picked up long after it is cold, and taken to a special
tent where your clothing is stripped off. So that you will be quickly
forgotten, and never again identified, your dog-tag is snipped in half and
your body along with those of your fellow soldiers are covered with
chemicals for rapid decomposition and buried. You were not one of the
exceptions, for more than one million seven hundred thousand German
Prisoners of War died from a deliberate policy of extermination by
starvation, exposure, and disease, under direct orders of the General Dwight
David Eisenhower.
One month before the end of World War 11, General Eisenhower issued special
orders concerning the treatment of German Prisoners and specific in the
language of those orders was this statement,
"Prison enclosures are to provide no shelter or other comforts."
Eisenhower biographer Stephen Ambrose, who was given access to the
Eisenhower personal letters, states that he proposed to exterminate the
entire German General Staff, thousands of people, after the war.
Eisenhower, in his personal letters, did not merely hate the Nazi Regime,
and the few who imposed its will down from the top, but that HE HATED THE
GERMAN PEOPLE AS A RACE. It was his personal intent to destroy as many of
them as he could, and one way was to wipe out as many prisoners of war as
possible.
Of course, that was illegal under International law, so he issued an order
on March 10, 1945 and verified by his initials on a cable of that date, that
German Prisoners of War be predesignated as "Disarmed Enemy Forces" called
in these reports as DEF. He ordered that these Germans did not fall under
the Geneva Rules, and were not to be fed or given any water or medical
attention. The Swiss Red Cross was not to inspect the camps, for under the
DEF classification, they had no such authority or jurisdiction.
Months after the war was officially over, Eisenhower's special German DEF
camps were still in operation forcing the men into confinement, but denying
that they were prisoners. As soon as the war was over, General George Patton
simply turned his prisoners loose to fend for themselves and find their way
home as best they could. Eisenhower was furious, and issued a specific order
to Patton, to turn these men over to the DEF camps. Knowing Patton as we do
from history, we know that these orders were largely ignored, and it may
well be that Patton's untimely and curious death may have been a result of
what he knew about these wretched Eisenhower DEF camps.
The book, OTHER LOSSES, found its way into the hands of a Canadian news
reporter, Peter Worthington, of the OTTAWA SUN. He did his own research
through contacts he had in Canada, and reported in his column on September
"...it is hard to escape the conclusion that Dwight Eisenhower was a war
criminal of epic proportions. His (DEF) policy killed more Germans in peace
than were killed in the European Theater."
"For years we have blamed the 1.7 million missing German POW's on the
Russians. Until now, no one dug too deeply ... Witnesses and survivors have
been interviewed by the author; one Allied officer compared the American
camps to Buchenwald."
It is known, that the Allies had sufficient stockpiles of food and medicine
to care for these German soldiers. This was deliberately and intentionally
denied them. Many men died of gangrene from frostbite due to deliberate
exposure. Local German people who offered these men food, were denied.
General Patton's Third Army was the only command in the European Theater to
release significant numbers of Germans.
Others, such as Omar Bradley and General J.C.H. Lee, Commander of Com Z,
tried, and ordered the release of prisoners within a week of the war's end.
However, a SHAEF Order, signed by Eisenhower, countermanded them on May
15th.
Does that make you angry? What will it take to get the average apathetic
American involved in saving his country from such traitors at the top?
Thirty years ago, amid the high popularity of Eisenhower, a book was written
setting out the political and moral philosophy; of Dwight David Eisenhower
called, THE POLITICIAN, by Robert Welch. This year is the 107th Anniversary
of Eisenhower's birth in Denison, Texas on October 14, 1890, the son of
Jacob David Eisenhower and his wife Ida. Everyone is all excited about the
celebration of this landmark in the history of "this American patriot."
Senator Robert Dole, in honor of the Commander of the American Death Camps,
proposed that Washington's Dulles Airport be renamed the Eisenhower Airport!
The UNITED STATES MINT in Philadelphia, PA is actually issuing a special
Eisenhower Centennial Silver Dollar for only $25 each. They will only mint 4
million of these collector's items, and veteran's magazines are promoting
these coins under the slogan, "Remember the Man...Remember the Times..."
Pardon me if I regurgitate!
There will be some veterans who will not be buying these coins. Two will be
Col. James Mason and Col. Charles Beasley who were in the U.S. Army Medical
Corps who published a paper on the Eisenhower Death Camps in 1950. They
"Huddled close together for warmth, behind the barbed wire was a most
awesome sight; nearly 100,000 haggard, apathetic, dirty, gaunt,
blank-staring men clad in dirty gray uniforms, and standing ankle deep in
mud ... water was a major problem, yet only 200 yards away the River Rhine
was running bank-full."
Another Veteran, who will not be buying any of the Eisenhower Silver Dollars
is Martin Brech of Mahopac, New York, a semi-retired professor of philosophy
at Mercy College in Dobbs Ferry, NY. In 1945, Brech was an 18 year old
Private First Class in Company C of the 14th Infantry, assigned as a guard
and interpreter at the Eisenhower Death Camp at Andernach, along the Rhine
"My protests (regarding treatment of the German DEF'S) were met with
hostility or indifference, and when I threw our ample rations to them over
the barbed wire. I was threatened, making it clear that it was our
deliberate policy not to adequately feed them."
"When they caught me throwing C- Rations over the fence, they threatened me
with imprisonment. One Captain told me that he would shoot me if he saw me
again tossing food to the Germans ... Some of the men were really only boys
13 years of age...Some of the prisoners were old men drafted by Hitler in
his last ditch stand ... I understand that average weight of the prisoners
at Andernach was 90 pounds...I have received threats ... Nevertheless,
this...has liberated me, for I may now be heard when I relate the horrible
atrocity I witnessed as a prison guard for one of 'Ike's death camps' along
the Rhine." (Betty Lou Smith Hanson)
Note: Remember the photo of Ike's West Point yearbook picture when he was
dubbed "IKE, THE TERRIBLE SWEDISH JEW"? By the way, he was next, or nearly
so, to the last in his class. This article was first printed in 1990, but we
thought it was meaningful to reprint it now.
Note: During Cadet Eisenhower's time at West Point Academy, Eisenhower was
summoned to the office of the headmaster and was asked some pointed
questions. At the time, it was routine procedure to test a cadet's blood to
insure White racial integrity.
Apparently, there was a question of Eisenhower's racial lineage and this was
brought to Eisenhower's attention by the headmaster. When asked if he was
part Oriental, Eisenhower replied in the negative. After some discussion,
Eisenhower admitted having Jewish background. The headmaster then reportedly
said, "That's where you get your Oriental blood?" Although he was allowed to
remain at the academy, word got around since this was a time in history when
non-Whites were not allowed into the academy. Note - The issue of
Eisenhower's little-known Jewish background in academically essential in
understanding his psychopathic hatred of German men, women and children.
Later, in Eisenhower's West Point Military Academy graduating class
yearbook, published in 1915, Eisenhower is identified as a "terrible Swedish
Jew."
Wherever Eisenhower went during his military career, Eisenhower's Jewish
background and secondary manifesting behavior was a concern to his fellow
officers. During World War II when Col. Eisenhower was working for Gen.
Douglas MacArthur in the South Pacific, MacArthur protested to his superiors
in Washington (DC) that Eisenhower was incompetent and that he did not want
Eisenhower on his staff.
In 1943, Washington not only transferred Col. Eisenhower to Europe but
promoted him over more than 30 more experienced senior officers to five star
general and placed him in charge of all the US forces in Europe.
Thus it comes as no surprise that General George Patton, a real Aryan
warrior, hated Eisenhower.
--
JimB
http://www.geocities.com/UAM01
Union Against Multi-Culty
Iskandar Baharuddin
2003-12-30 01:52:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Eisenhower's Holocaust - His Slaughter Of 1.7 Million Germans
http://www.rense.com/general46/germ.htm
Author Not Known
12-28-03
Author unknown? And I'm supposed to take this as a credible account?
Now,
Post by Heidi Graw
I don't have information about what happened in *all* American POW camps,
but I can tell you about ONE German youth...a 17-year old teenager who tried
He kept his eyes closed each time he pulled the trigger of his rifle. He
didn't want to know if he actually would kill anyone. This young man was my
father. He thanked his lucky stars that the Americans picked him up and
hauled him into an American POW camp. ;-)
Dad told me the camp was so poorly secured he managed to escape seven times.
Of course, he did get picked up every time he left camp without
authorization. For some reason, the Americans liked this affable young man
and allowed him to drive the officers around in the Army jeeps. He thought
this was way cool! Once, he even took a jeep for a spin outside of the
prison camp. ;-) Exasperated about my fathers continuing escapes, the
Americans finally let him go claiming, "Anyone that desperate to get back
home to his family deserves to be freed."
For years, after the war, when we lived in Hamburg, my Dad would go to the
harbour to invite American sailors to his home for dinner to meet his family
and to practise speaking English. An American soldier married my Dad's
sister and whisked her off to the USA. My other Berlin relatives routinely
visited American clubs and made many friends there. They were greatly
saddened when the Americans finally left their city and closed down their
clubs.
Anyway, just one family's experience with the American occupiers. ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Thank you for posting this, Heidi. I knew the original post was bullshit,
but I did not have the personal experience to refute it convincingly.

Regards,

Izzy

snip
Eduard Heeronts
2003-12-30 05:15:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Eisenhower's Holocaust - His Slaughter Of 1.7 Million Germans
http://www.rense.com/general46/germ.htm
Author Not Known
12-28-03
Author unknown? And I'm supposed to take this as a credible account?
Unfotunately, the account is very much credible. It describes fairly
accurately the so-called "Rhinewiesen" in 1945.
Now,
Post by Heidi Graw
I don't have information about what happened in *all* American POW camps,
but I can tell you about ONE German youth...a 17-year old teenager who
tried
Post by Heidi Graw
to defend his home city, Berlin, in its last days the best way he knew
He kept his eyes closed each time he pulled the trigger of his rifle.
He
Post by Heidi Graw
didn't want to know if he actually would kill anyone. This young man
was
my
Post by Heidi Graw
father. He thanked his lucky stars that the Americans picked him up and
hauled him into an American POW camp. ;-)
This account is also credible, insofar as your father was a 17-year old
teenager who tried to defend his home city, Berlin.
But, it becomes incredible when you are telling us that he "closed his eyes"
when using his rifle against enemy troops in Berlin. Surely he would not
have been eager to be captured and/or shut by the Communist Russians, who
had surrounded Berlin and finally conquered it.

At the same time, the Americans were at least 200 miles to the West of
Berlin. Therefore, your father must have been "closing his eyes" not in
Berlin, but somewhere else, where he could be picked up by the Americans.
And there he had tripple luck:
1. He didn't fall into Russian hands.
2. He didn't fall into the hands of those American troops who had the
"Rhinewiesen" under their jurisdiction.
3. He fell into the hands of American troops who were, perhaps, under the
command of General Patton???

In any case, most American troops were good old boys, and if one didn't end
up on the Rhinewiesen, they were the most agreeable to be with as a prisoner
of war -- not as a "disarmed enemy," however.

Eduard
Heidi Graw
2003-12-30 05:46:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eduard Heeronts
This account is also credible, insofar as your father was a 17-year old
teenager who tried to defend his home city, Berlin.
But, it becomes incredible when you are telling us that he "closed his eyes"
when using his rifle against enemy troops in Berlin. Surely he would not
have been eager to be captured and/or shut by the Communist Russians, who
had surrounded Berlin and finally conquered it.
At the same time, the Americans were at least 200 miles to the West of
Berlin. Therefore, your father must have been "closing his eyes" not in
Berlin, but somewhere else, where he could be picked up by the Americans.
My father always maintained that he was conscripted to defend Berlin. He
could have defended Berlin from 200 miles away. As for keeping his eyes
closed the whole time...I can believe that of my Dad. He was a man of
peace. He was born and raised in Berlin. It was a city of diverse
cultures, arts and entertainments...and he loved people...all kinds of
people...in fact, the stranger the people, the more exotic and odd...he
loved that! ;-)

I remember one time, after we had arrived in Canada, Mom had asked him to go
out back to kill a rabbit. Well...Dad did that dirty deed...He came back
into the house, his face white as a ghost, and said to Mom, "Don't you EVER
ask me to do that again!" Mom, having been raised out in the country had no
squeemishness about killing things...Dad, however, that city-slicker felt
absolutely traumatized about killing a rabbit! LOL...So, yes, I believe it
when Dad said that whenever he shot his rifle, he closed his eyes. ;-)
Post by Eduard Heeronts
1. He didn't fall into Russian hands.
At the point when he thought all was lost, Dad could have escaped out of the
city. He did escape seven times from a POW camp...proving he was quite
resourceful and quick witted! I can't ask him to clarify because he had
died unexpectedly in 1978...20 days before his 50th birthday.

As his daughter, I have to believe he was telling me the truth. He had no
reason to lie to me about his experiences.

Take care,
Heidi
The Enlightenment
2003-12-30 10:27:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Eisenhower's Holocaust - His Slaughter Of 1.7 Million Germans
http://www.rense.com/general46/germ.htm
Author Not Known
12-28-03
Author unknown? And I'm supposed to take this as a credible
account?
Post by Heidi Graw
Now,
Post by Heidi Graw
I don't have information about what happened in *all* American POW camps,
but I can tell you about ONE German youth...a 17-year old teenager
who
Post by Heidi Graw
tried
Post by Heidi Graw
to defend his home city, Berlin, in its last days the best way he
knew
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Heidi Graw
He kept his eyes closed each time he pulled the trigger of his rifle. He
didn't want to know if he actually would kill anyone. This young
man was
Post by Heidi Graw
my
Post by Heidi Graw
father. He thanked his lucky stars that the Americans picked him up and
hauled him into an American POW camp. ;-)
Dad told me the camp was so poorly secured he managed to escape
seven
Post by Heidi Graw
times.
Post by Heidi Graw
Of course, he did get picked up every time he left camp without
authorization. For some reason, the Americans liked this affable
young
Post by Heidi Graw
man
Post by Heidi Graw
and allowed him to drive the officers around in the Army jeeps.
He
Post by Heidi Graw
thought
Post by Heidi Graw
this was way cool! Once, he even took a jeep for a spin outside of the
prison camp. ;-) Exasperated about my fathers continuing
escapes, the
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Heidi Graw
Americans finally let him go claiming, "Anyone that desperate to get back
home to his family deserves to be freed."
For years, after the war, when we lived in Hamburg, my Dad would go to the
harbour to invite American sailors to his home for dinner to meet
his
Post by Heidi Graw
family
Post by Heidi Graw
and to practise speaking English. An American soldier married my Dad's
sister and whisked her off to the USA. My other Berlin relatives routinely
visited American clubs and made many friends there. They were greatly
saddened when the Americans finally left their city and closed down their
clubs.
Anyway, just one family's experience with the American occupiers.
;-)
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Heidi Graw
Take care,
Heidi
Thank you for posting this, Heidi. I knew the original post was bullshit,
but I did not have the personal experience to refute it
convincingly.
Post by Heidi Graw
Regards,
Izzy
The treatment of German soldiers depended on where they were captured
and who by and at what time. It seems very odd that this fellow was
defending Berlin but was somehow captured by Americans: Berlin was
taken by Soviet forces entirely.

An old Austrian fellow I know who was captured by Americans spent
weeks in the open snow with other prisoners while the Americans took
random shots into the crowded prisoners. They killed several
Germans/Austrians and others in this way every night over a period of
some weeks.

Heidi should shut her mouth shut till she has looked into the other
side a little bit more so that she can tell her fathers tale in
context.

Large numbers of prisoners died in Allied hands. Its as simple as
that and James Bacques book is worth a look.
Heidi Graw
2003-12-30 12:22:50 UTC
Permalink
"The Enlightenment" <***@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:1qcIb.70142$***@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
(snip)
Post by The Enlightenment
The treatment of German soldiers depended on where they were captured
and who by and at what time. It seems very odd that this fellow was
Why is that odd?
Post by The Enlightenment
Berlin was
taken by Soviet forces entirely.
So? I've described a youth...a native-born Berliner who loved his city!
His family had lived in that city for generations! No matter where in the
world he would have been shipped off to, he would have been defending
Berlin! That is where is home and his family was and still lives in.

And when he emigrated to Canada and built his house, he very prominently
displayed the Berlin Bear between the gables of the roof. He wanted
everyone to know he came from Berlin! ;-) Our neighbours dubbed it the
Kraut Castle! LOL..
Post by The Enlightenment
Heidi should shut her mouth shut till she has looked into the other
side a little bit more so that she can tell her fathers tale in
context.
Look! I haven't said anything that would discount what you're saying. All
I did was relate ONE story about ONE man's experience. He did not say
anything about the conditions of the American POW camp except that it was
all too easy for him to keep escaping from it. ;-) He spoke no ill words
about his captors or his treatment. He made no comment about the food or if
anyone had beaten him up and tortured him. He made no comments about the
other prisoners. However, keeping in mind his behavior after the war towards
Americans and all things American, if he had been abused, he would not have
been so fond of America. He was allowed to drive American officers around
in the POW camp! So, wherever it was where he had been held, it was
obviously *not* like other camps.

As for an uncle of mine. He was captured and was promptly turned over to
the Brits. The British tortured him, but he perservered. After that
initial abuse, he claimed he was then treated quite well. In the British
POW camp he learned to speak English, played cards with his captors and
quite frankly ended up having a good time. Once released he didn't
skidaddle back home right away. He took his time touring England for a few
months...working here and there and getting to know some of the locals.

Take care,
Heidi
Joe
2003-12-30 13:05:39 UTC
Permalink
... with other prisoners while the Americans took random shots into the
crowded prisoners.

I don't believe this for a second.
Theseus Oblivion
2003-12-30 15:16:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Enlightenment
... with other prisoners while the Americans took random shots into the
crowded prisoners.
I don't believe this for a second.
Why?
--
wer scih an Rhtcecrhseibflrehen afunghaet, vreheflt dsa Tmhea!
Joe
2003-12-30 15:46:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Enlightenment
... with other prisoners while the Americans took random shots into the
crowded prisoners.
I don't believe this for a second.
Why?
Seems out of character for the US at the end of WWII.
Theseus Oblivion
2003-12-30 15:51:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe
Seems out of character for the US at the end of WWII.
Do you think the US-Army was/is an amry of angels?

Stories like this are an approved fact...
--
wer scih an Rhtcecrhseibflrehen afunghaet, vreheflt dsa Tmhea!
RT
2003-12-30 16:06:02 UTC
Permalink
Theseus Oblivion wrote in message ...
Post by Theseus Oblivion
Post by Joe
Seems out of character for the US at the end of WWII.
Do you think the US-Army was/is an amry of angels?
Stories like this are an approved fact...
wer scih an Rhtcecrhseibflrehen afunghaet, vreheflt dsa Tmhea!
Fer Chrissake, not only are you incapable of spelling English, you also
can't even spell your own German!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wot a woofter. Erm -
Whooftr for you Germaniacs......
Theseus Oblivion
2003-12-30 18:44:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by RT
Post by Theseus Oblivion
Stories like this are an approved fact...
wer scih an Rhtcecrhseibflrehen afunghaet, vreheflt dsa Tmhea!
Fer Chrissake, not only are you incapable of spelling English, you also
^^^ ^^^^^^^^^

People in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones. I've never seen such bad
english from a person who raised with english as its native language.

You are primitive, i'm able to speak in 4 lanugages, and you are
celebrating, cause you found a typing error in my post...You seem to be a
depauperate redneck.
Post by RT
you also can't even spell your own German!
So, i can't?

You won't be able to understand my signature until the day you die.
--
wer scih an Rhtcecrhseibflrehen afunghaet, vreheflt dsa Tmhea!
Iskandar Baharuddin
2003-12-30 19:20:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theseus Oblivion
Post by Joe
Seems out of character for the US at the end of WWII.
Do you think the US-Army was/is an amry of angels?
Stories like this are an approved fact...
Who does the approving?

Izzy
Theseus Oblivion
2003-12-30 19:34:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
Post by Theseus Oblivion
Post by Joe
Seems out of character for the US at the end of WWII.
Do you think the US-Army was/is an amry of angels?
Stories like this are an approved fact...
Who does the approving?
Thousands of witnesses do the approving.

That's war...and no army is immaculate at war.
--
wer scih an Rhtcecrhseibflrehen afunghaet, vreheflt dsa Tmhea!
Iskandar Baharuddin
2003-12-30 20:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theseus Oblivion
Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
Post by Theseus Oblivion
Post by Joe
Seems out of character for the US at the end of WWII.
Do you think the US-Army was/is an amry of angels?
Stories like this are an approved fact...
Who does the approving?
Thousands of witnesses do the approving.
That's war...and no army is immaculate at war.
--
wer scih an Rhtcecrhseibflrehen afunghaet, vreheflt dsa Tmhea!
Once again I have been guiltly of excessive subtlety.

Izzy
Joe
2003-12-30 21:30:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theseus Oblivion
Post by Joe
Seems out of character for the US at the end of WWII.
Do you think the US-Army was/is an amry of angels?
Stories like this are an approved fact...
And the proof is?
Theseus Oblivion
2003-12-31 14:15:37 UTC
Permalink
--
wer scih an Rhtcecrhseibflrehen afunghaet, vreheflt dsa Tmhea!
Werner Knoll
2003-12-30 04:31:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Eisenhower's Holocaust - His Slaughter Of 1.7 Million Germans
http://www.rense.com/general46/germ.htm
Author Not Known
12-28-03
Author unknown? And I'm supposed to take this as a credible account?
Now,
Post by Heidi Graw
I don't have information about what happened in *all* American POW camps,
but I can tell you about ONE German youth...a 17-year old teenager who tried
He kept his eyes closed each time he pulled the trigger of his rifle.
He
Post by Heidi Graw
didn't want to know if he actually would kill anyone. This young man was my
father. He thanked his lucky stars that the Americans picked him up and
hauled him into an American POW camp. ;-)
Dad told me the camp was so poorly secured he managed to escape seven times.
Of course, he did get picked up every time he left camp without
authorization. For some reason, the Americans liked this affable young man
and allowed him to drive the officers around in the Army jeeps. He thought
this was way cool! Once, he even took a jeep for a spin outside of the
prison camp. ;-) Exasperated about my fathers continuing escapes, the
Americans finally let him go claiming, "Anyone that desperate to get back
home to his family deserves to be freed."
For years, after the war, when we lived in Hamburg, my Dad would go to the
harbour to invite American sailors to his home for dinner to meet his family
and to practise speaking English. An American soldier married my Dad's
sister and whisked her off to the USA. My other Berlin relatives routinely
visited American clubs and made many friends there. They were greatly
saddened when the Americans finally left their city and closed down their
clubs.
Anyway, just one family's experience with the American occupiers. ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
I remember at age 12 in 1945 an American soldier putting a gun to my head
for taking stuff out from a garbage can to have something to eat.

I remember in 1946 American soldiers unloading frozen chickens in
Nuremberg at the corner of Scharrerstraße and Regensburger Strasse. But
gasoline over it and set it on fire, while we were standing around to wait
till they are gone to recover what is left over.

Werner Knoll
Heidi Graw
2003-12-30 05:21:44 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Werner Knoll
I remember at age 12 in 1945 an American soldier putting a gun to my head
for taking stuff out from a garbage can to have something to eat.
I remember in 1946 American soldiers unloading frozen chickens in
Nuremberg at the corner of Scharrerstraße and Regensburger Strasse. But
gasoline over it and set it on fire, while we were standing around to wait
till they are gone to recover what is left over.
Werner, every army has its share of assholes. Every army also has its share
of "men of honour." Take my mother's experience under the Russian
occupation: I'm sure you've heard the horror stories. But, among the
filth, the destruction, the utter degradation and immorality, there are
those few men who remain unaffected.

Anyway, a Russian officer took up residency in my grandmother's house. He
restricted Grandma and her 4 children into one tiny bedroom. The officer,
his family and staff members took over the rest of her house. However, he
made sure that Grandma and her children (my mother among them) had enough
food to eat...usually a huge pot full of soup loaded with vegetables, a tiny
bit of meat, a loaf of bread and a carafe of fresh milk. She and her
children could come and go as they pleased. They also had access to fresh
water and other necessities.

Grandma would spend most of her time crotching beautiful lace collars for
the officer's wife and daughters. She noticed they appreciated such pretty
gifts. Grandma also used to syphon off some of the Votka and water it down.
And each time the officer and his buddies ran out of booze, Grandma would
magically appear with a whole new bottle in hand! ;-)

One day, my mother ran home crying. Apparently, a young Russian soldier had
accosted her and almost raped her. Mom had fought him off. Seeing my
mother so upset, the Russian officer had demanded what all the fuss was
about. After she told him what happened...well...let's just say that young
Russian soldier was no longer anywhere to be found. This one officer
absolutely would not tolerate raping, pillaging and otherwise abusing the
people who were placed under his "protection." His orders had been to
occupy, nothing more and nothing less. Needless to say, Grandma was greatly
relieved. Things could have been so much worse.

Anyway, Werner, if you look for the bad, you will find it. If you look for
the good, you will find that, too.

Take care,
Heidi
Post by Werner Knoll
Werner Knoll
Werner Knoll
2003-12-30 20:12:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)
Post by Werner Knoll
I remember at age 12 in 1945 an American soldier putting a gun to my head
for taking stuff out from a garbage can to have something to eat.
I remember in 1946 American soldiers unloading frozen chickens in
Nuremberg at the corner of Scharrerstraße and Regensburger Strasse. But
gasoline over it and set it on fire, while we were standing around to wait
till they are gone to recover what is left over.
Werner, every army has its share of assholes. Every army also has its share
of "men of honour." Take my mother's experience under the Russian
occupation: I'm sure you've heard the horror stories. But, among the
filth, the destruction, the utter degradation and immorality, there are
those few men who remain unaffected.
Anyway, a Russian officer took up residency in my grandmother's house.
He
Post by Heidi Graw
restricted Grandma and her 4 children into one tiny bedroom. The officer,
his family and staff members took over the rest of her house. However, he
made sure that Grandma and her children (my mother among them) had enough
food to eat...usually a huge pot full of soup loaded with vegetables, a tiny
bit of meat, a loaf of bread and a carafe of fresh milk. She and her
children could come and go as they pleased. They also had access to fresh
water and other necessities.
Grandma would spend most of her time crotching beautiful lace collars for
the officer's wife and daughters. She noticed they appreciated such pretty
gifts. Grandma also used to syphon off some of the Votka and water it down.
And each time the officer and his buddies ran out of booze, Grandma would
magically appear with a whole new bottle in hand! ;-)
One day, my mother ran home crying. Apparently, a young Russian soldier
had
Post by Heidi Graw
accosted her and almost raped her. Mom had fought him off. Seeing my
mother so upset, the Russian officer had demanded what all the fuss was
about. After she told him what happened...well...let's just say that young
Russian soldier was no longer anywhere to be found. This one officer
absolutely would not tolerate raping, pillaging and otherwise abusing the
people who were placed under his "protection." His orders had been to
occupy, nothing more and nothing less. Needless to say, Grandma was greatly
relieved. Things could have been so much worse.
Anyway, Werner, if you look for the bad, you will find it. If you look for
the good, you will find that, too.
Take care,
Heidi
When the Russians done some something wrong we said: What do you expect
from them? When the Americans done something wrong, we said: They should
know better.

You are lucky that you were born after the war. When Kurt and I came to
Canada in 1956 and 1957 we were used by everyone who had no sex the night
before as a lightning rod. Never were we allowed to give our side of what
happened to us.

I worked in an Aluminum Smelter "Alcan" in 56. We had some people from
Poland, Holland and many other nations working there beside us.

Whenever there was a news report in the press of what the Germans done,
this guys made sure that we were made to look bad.

This guy's waited till lunch time and got everybody worked up to have a go
at us.

We were guilty for being Germans. Funny Jewish people in Germany were
guilty for being Jews. Something to think about.

We had a Canadian WW II veteran, who was stationed in Germany. This what
he wrote in a news paper about the Americans stationed in Germany after
the war...

The Americans were so sexy, the screwed everything what had a hole in it.
A plumber in a small village had to hide his pipes to stop this guys from
going at it.


Werner Knoll
If you say the truth in a democracy. The masses will hang you
Plato 427 - 374? BC
Heidi Graw
2003-12-30 21:20:28 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Werner Knoll
Whenever there was a news report in the press of what the Germans done,
this guys made sure that we were made to look bad.
This guy's waited till lunch time and got everybody worked up to have a go
at us.
We were guilty for being Germans. Funny Jewish people in Germany were
guilty for being Jews. Something to think about.
I hear ya, Werner. Back in '66 and well into the '70's the anti-German
sentiments still rang quite clearly and loudly in Canada. At school, a day
didn't go by without some jackass calling me a NAZI and a Jew Killer. I
hated those "Remembrance Day" ceremonies at school, because those triggered
another round of attacks on me.

So, what got me through? My very best friend was a Canadian girl of British
and Irish background. I also had an example of my parents and their
friends. I knew it was o.k. to be German. Those who attacked me were just
idiots. I dismissed them and made a conscious effort to walk straight and
proud!

The first thing my Dad did when he arrived in Canada was to join the local
Canadian Legion. There he made a huge number of friends who were veterans
of the Allied Forces, including a Russian or two. Despite my being
underage, he insisted I come with him to sit around the Legion table to hear
the stories of the warriors...real warriors...the kind who know a soldier's
duty and who, after a battle had been won or lost, will recognize each
other's bravery and heroics. Our house was consistently filled with friends
who were Canadian of a grand variety of cultural backgrounds. Our house
parties pretty much reflected the UN. ;-) Our Kraut Castle became a magnet
for the neighbourhood to gather 'round. Mom always managed to fill up the
table with all kinds of good food that Canadians had never eaten before.
And Dad spent his time educating our neighbours about German culture, arts
and music.

On Sunday mornings, when the church bells rang, Dad blared Wagner's
"Goetterdaemmerung" over the outside speakers of our house. So, while
angels were calling the Christian folk, Dad unleashed his Valkyries to go
screaming after them! ;-) He also introduced "Fasching" into the Legion
Hall. The man had an attitude and a character that endeared him even to his
worst opposition. Walk tall, walk proud! You did your duty. You did
nothing to be ashamed of. His Allied Friends agreed. And it was my parents
and their friends to whose example I look to that made me realize it's o.k.
to be German. It's o.k. to let the whole world know that and I didn't have
to cower before anyone. I didn't have to feel ashamed. And I certainly
didn't have to fall victim to discrimination.
Post by Werner Knoll
Werner Knoll
If you say the truth in a democracy. The masses will hang you
Plato 427 - 374? BC
Then let them hang me! I'd rather die speaking the truth than live with
lies clinging to my tongue.

Take care,
Heidi
Werner Knoll
2003-12-31 03:53:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)
Post by Werner Knoll
Whenever there was a news report in the press of what the Germans done,
this guys made sure that we were made to look bad.
This guy's waited till lunch time and got everybody worked up to have a go
at us.
We were guilty for being Germans. Funny Jewish people in Germany were
guilty for being Jews. Something to think about.
I hear ya, Werner. Back in '66 and well into the '70's the anti-German
sentiments still rang quite clearly and loudly in Canada. At school, a day
didn't go by without some jackass calling me a NAZI and a Jew Killer. I
hated those "Remembrance Day" ceremonies at school, because those triggered
another round of attacks on me.
If we would not have been around, they would have found somebody else to
insult.
Post by Heidi Graw
So, what got me through? My very best friend was a Canadian girl of British
and Irish background. I also had an example of my parents and their
friends. I knew it was o.k. to be German. Those who attacked me were just
idiots. I dismissed them and made a conscious effort to walk straight and
proud!
The first thing my Dad did when he arrived in Canada was to join the local
Canadian Legion. There he made a huge number of friends who were veterans
of the Allied Forces, including a Russian or two. Despite my being
underage, he insisted I come with him to sit around the Legion table to hear
the stories of the warriors...real warriors...the kind who know a soldier's
duty and who, after a battle had been won or lost, will recognize each
other's bravery and heroics. Our house was consistently filled with friends
who were Canadian of a grand variety of cultural backgrounds. Our house
parties pretty much reflected the UN. ;-) Our Kraut Castle became a magnet
for the neighbourhood to gather 'round. Mom always managed to fill up the
table with all kinds of good food that Canadians had never eaten before.
And Dad spent his time educating our neighbours about German culture, arts
and music.
My best friends were Canadian WWII veterans who told me what they went
through. It was always those who were not in the war who became experts of
what
is right and wrong.

One of this guy's told me a story to tell me that he is on my side...

****************************************
Tom Dick and Harry went with Fritz the "Kraut" for a swim. As they
arrived at the swimming pool the weather changed and it started to rain.

Dick said: Hurry up guy's, we better run home before the rain gets too
heavy. All four ran like hell but did not make it.

They knocked on the door of a small farmhouse and asked if they could
stay till the rain stopped?

Sure said the farmer and let them in. He asked the kids who and what
their parents are and Fritz told him that his parents are Germans.

Well said the farmer; you three boy's go right over to the fireplace and
warm your self up and you "Square head" go right over to the open window
and stay there.

Fritz watches his friends as they were talking to the farmer till Harry
said that he had a dream last night.

The farmer asked him what kind of dream he had last night? Oh said
Harry; he was dreaming last night that he was in heaven.

Now the farmer turned around and said: How about you Square head? Did
you have a dream last night too?

As a matter of fact I did said Fritz. What was your dream the farmer
asked Fritz? Fritz said that he dreamed last night that he was in Hell.

Now this got the attention of his friends and they liked too know how it
was there, so they asked him?

Well-said Fritz. It was very much like here.. I was standing on the
window as the cold wind was blowing around me and all you guys were
standing around the fireplace.

********************************************
Post by Heidi Graw
On Sunday mornings, when the church bells rang, Dad blared Wagner's
"Goetterdaemmerung" over the outside speakers of our house. So, while
angels were calling the Christian folk, Dad unleashed his Valkyries to go
screaming after them! ;-) He also introduced "Fasching" into the Legion
Hall. The man had an attitude and a character that endeared him even to his
worst opposition. Walk tall, walk proud! You did your duty. You did
nothing to be ashamed of. His Allied Friends agreed. And it was my parents
and their friends to whose example I look to that made me realize it's o.k.
to be German. It's o.k. to let the whole world know that and I didn't have
to cower before anyone. I didn't have to feel ashamed. And I certainly
didn't have to fall victim to discrimination.
Post by Werner Knoll
Werner Knoll
If you say the truth in a democracy. The masses will hang you
Plato 427 - 374? BC
Then let them hang me! I'd rather die speaking the truth than live with
lies clinging to my tongue.
Take care,
Heidi
Here are some books for you to read:

Crimes and Mercies by James Bacque ISBN 0 316 64070 0

The story about German civilian's after the war


The Immigrant Years by Barry Broadfoot

ISBN 0-88894-519-1

The story Immigrants coming to Canada after the war.


Werner Knoll
Gord Webster
2003-12-31 05:06:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)
Post by Werner Knoll
Whenever there was a news report in the press of what the Germans
done,
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Werner Knoll
this guys made sure that we were made to look bad.
This guy's waited till lunch time and got everybody worked up to have
a go
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Werner Knoll
at us.
We were guilty for being Germans. Funny Jewish people in Germany were
guilty for being Jews. Something to think about.
I hear ya, Werner. Back in '66 and well into the '70's the anti-German
sentiments still rang quite clearly and loudly in Canada. At school, a
day
Post by Heidi Graw
didn't go by without some jackass calling me a NAZI and a Jew Killer. I
hated those "Remembrance Day" ceremonies at school, because those
triggered
Post by Heidi Graw
another round of attacks on me.
If we would not have been around, they would have found somebody else to
insult.
Post by Heidi Graw
So, what got me through? My very best friend was a Canadian girl of
British
Post by Heidi Graw
and Irish background. I also had an example of my parents and their
friends. I knew it was o.k. to be German. Those who attacked me were
just
Post by Heidi Graw
idiots. I dismissed them and made a conscious effort to walk straight
and
Post by Heidi Graw
proud!
The first thing my Dad did when he arrived in Canada was to join the
local
Post by Heidi Graw
Canadian Legion. There he made a huge number of friends who were
veterans
Post by Heidi Graw
of the Allied Forces, including a Russian or two. Despite my being
underage, he insisted I come with him to sit around the Legion table to
hear
Post by Heidi Graw
the stories of the warriors...real warriors...the kind who know a
soldier's
Post by Heidi Graw
duty and who, after a battle had been won or lost, will recognize each
other's bravery and heroics. Our house was consistently filled with
friends
Post by Heidi Graw
who were Canadian of a grand variety of cultural backgrounds. Our house
parties pretty much reflected the UN. ;-) Our Kraut Castle became a
magnet
Post by Heidi Graw
for the neighbourhood to gather 'round. Mom always managed to fill up
the
Post by Heidi Graw
table with all kinds of good food that Canadians had never eaten before.
And Dad spent his time educating our neighbours about German culture,
arts
Post by Heidi Graw
and music.
My best friends were Canadian WWII veterans who told me what they went
through. It was always those who were not in the war who became experts of
what
is right and wrong.
One of this guy's told me a story to tell me that he is on my side...
****************************************
Tom Dick and Harry went with Fritz the "Kraut" for a swim. As they
arrived at the swimming pool the weather changed and it started to rain.
Dick said: Hurry up guy's, we better run home before the rain gets too
heavy. All four ran like hell but did not make it.
They knocked on the door of a small farmhouse and asked if they could
stay till the rain stopped?
Sure said the farmer and let them in. He asked the kids who and what
their parents are and Fritz told him that his parents are Germans.
Well said the farmer; you three boy's go right over to the fireplace and
warm your self up and you "Square head" go right over to the open window
and stay there.
Fritz watches his friends as they were talking to the farmer till Harry
said that he had a dream last night.
The farmer asked him what kind of dream he had last night? Oh said
Harry; he was dreaming last night that he was in heaven.
Now the farmer turned around and said: How about you Square head? Did
you have a dream last night too?
As a matter of fact I did said Fritz. What was your dream the farmer
asked Fritz? Fritz said that he dreamed last night that he was in Hell.
Now this got the attention of his friends and they liked too know how it
was there, so they asked him?
Well-said Fritz. It was very much like here.. I was standing on the
window as the cold wind was blowing around me and all you guys were
standing around the fireplace.
********************************************
Post by Heidi Graw
On Sunday mornings, when the church bells rang, Dad blared Wagner's
"Goetterdaemmerung" over the outside speakers of our house. So, while
angels were calling the Christian folk, Dad unleashed his Valkyries to
go
Post by Heidi Graw
screaming after them! ;-) He also introduced "Fasching" into the
Legion
Post by Heidi Graw
Hall. The man had an attitude and a character that endeared him even to
his
Post by Heidi Graw
worst opposition. Walk tall, walk proud! You did your duty. You did
nothing to be ashamed of. His Allied Friends agreed. And it was my
parents
Post by Heidi Graw
and their friends to whose example I look to that made me realize it's
o.k.
Post by Heidi Graw
to be German. It's o.k. to let the whole world know that and I didn't
have
Post by Heidi Graw
to cower before anyone. I didn't have to feel ashamed. And I certainly
didn't have to fall victim to discrimination.
Post by Werner Knoll
Werner Knoll
If you say the truth in a democracy. The masses will hang you
Plato 427 - 374? BC
Then let them hang me! I'd rather die speaking the truth than live with
lies clinging to my tongue.
Take care,
Heidi
Crimes and Mercies by James Bacque ISBN 0 316 64070 0
The story about German civilian's after the war
The Immigrant Years by Barry Broadfoot
ISBN 0-88894-519-1
The story Immigrants coming to Canada after the war.
Werner Knoll
Werner, Kurt, Heidi et al:

I haven't been that interested in the can.politics newsgroup for all that
long, and because it tends to be more a forum of partisan politics which all
need more truth and fewer lies, I haven't had the desire to say much more
than pissing on those who have extreme sets of values.

I want you to know that I think that this thread is one of the best I've
read all year. I have a friend from the 1970's who's father was 16 or so
when he was captured by the Soviets in the defence of Berlin and finally
released in 1950 from a camp (he was given his uniform back that day)..
Later, he went on to become successful with a German company in Canada
(Volkswagen). The stories I've read by you guys paint a similar picture.

Thanks for your stories. My (late) Father fought in WWII first for the
Navy and then with the RCAF and never had much that he felt like discussing,
but who can blame him? He never had an issue with anyone "post war"
because of nationality, so I assumed so much for many.
Heidi Graw
2003-12-31 08:21:24 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Gord Webster
I want you to know that I think that this thread is one of the best I've
read all year.
Thank you, Gord. It is the dead of winter and story-telling seems to be
appropriate for this time of year. And since you enjoy this thread so much,
I'll add another story if you don't mind. :-)

You'll remember my telling you about my Grandmother's experience during the
Russian occupation. Well...prior to that, war was raging over the land.
The civilian population was often uprooted to take them to safer quarters.
My Grandmother had to move with her 4 children several times...4 or 5 times
at least. During one of these evacuations they boarded a train that was jam
packed full of people. Grandma complained there were no window seats for
her and her children. She had to make do huddling in an aisle on the floor
with solid walls on either side.

The train rattled along the tracks for days on end, criss-crossing the
countryside. Each day, Grandma was given only one bowl of watery soup and a
small crust of bread to share between herself and her 4 children. The
little supplies that she had been able to pack prior to the trip quickly ran
out. They were all extremely hungry, cold and miserable.

All of a sudden bombs exploded all around them...one exploded so close it
shattered the windows of the train People were dead and dying. Blood and
guts was everywhere. Grandma and her children were spared because the
shards of glass and shrapnel did not get close to where they had been
huddling. Horrified, all Grandma could do was thank the Lord for saving her
and her children. She broke down and cried while chaos reigned around her.
The dying offered the scraps of food they had in their pockets. Other
survivors also picked through the corpses to find anything at all that might
have been edible. My mother was too shocked, too appalled to accept that
what a dying man was offering her with his bloodied hands. My aunt,
however, quickly scrambled over the dead and joined the others in search of
food. She was considerably more pragmatic about the whole thing and managed
to squirrel away enough for the other two siblings and herself.

Although the bomb shattered windows the train kept moving along. It had to
and it did. The damage did not interfere with the trains mobility. The
rails had not been hit. It kept moving until it was safe enough to stop and
attend to the dead and dying. The survivors were tranfered to another
train. This time, Grandma allowed herself and her children to be placed
where the officials thought it was best...away from the windows and
doorways!

For two weeks they were constantly on the move. The hunger was the worst.
Mom lost her eyebrows, she lost a lot of weight and ended up sick with
diphtheria. And while Mom was recouperating in a hospital, she noticed she
had lice. She was too embarrassed to tell anyone...so...the whole hospital
ended up infested! My mother's pride! It got in the way of her eating food
left by the dead...She'd rather suffer than eat that what was offered by the
dying. And it got in the way of her admitting to lice which caused everyone
else to catch them! But, she did survive and her eyebrows grew back!
LOL...

Take care,
Heidi
Gord Webster
2003-12-31 09:14:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)
Post by Gord Webster
I want you to know that I think that this thread is one of the best I've
read all year.
Thank you, Gord. It is the dead of winter and story-telling seems to be
appropriate for this time of year. And since you enjoy this thread so much,
I'll add another story if you don't mind. :-)
You'll remember my telling you about my Grandmother's experience during the
Russian occupation. Well...prior to that, war was raging over the land.
The civilian population was often uprooted to take them to safer quarters.
My Grandmother had to move with her 4 children several times...4 or 5 times
at least. During one of these evacuations they boarded a train that was jam
packed full of people. Grandma complained there were no window seats for
her and her children. She had to make do huddling in an aisle on the floor
with solid walls on either side.
The train rattled along the tracks for days on end, criss-crossing the
countryside. Each day, Grandma was given only one bowl of watery soup and a
small crust of bread to share between herself and her 4 children. The
little supplies that she had been able to pack prior to the trip quickly ran
out. They were all extremely hungry, cold and miserable.
All of a sudden bombs exploded all around them...one exploded so close it
shattered the windows of the train People were dead and dying. Blood and
guts was everywhere. Grandma and her children were spared because the
shards of glass and shrapnel did not get close to where they had been
huddling. Horrified, all Grandma could do was thank the Lord for saving her
and her children. She broke down and cried while chaos reigned around her.
The dying offered the scraps of food they had in their pockets. Other
survivors also picked through the corpses to find anything at all that might
have been edible. My mother was too shocked, too appalled to accept that
what a dying man was offering her with his bloodied hands. My aunt,
however, quickly scrambled over the dead and joined the others in search of
food. She was considerably more pragmatic about the whole thing and managed
to squirrel away enough for the other two siblings and herself.
Although the bomb shattered windows the train kept moving along. It had to
and it did. The damage did not interfere with the trains mobility. The
rails had not been hit. It kept moving until it was safe enough to stop and
attend to the dead and dying. The survivors were tranfered to another
train. This time, Grandma allowed herself and her children to be placed
where the officials thought it was best...away from the windows and
doorways!
For two weeks they were constantly on the move. The hunger was the worst.
Mom lost her eyebrows, she lost a lot of weight and ended up sick with
diphtheria. And while Mom was recouperating in a hospital, she noticed she
had lice. She was too embarrassed to tell anyone...so...the whole hospital
ended up infested! My mother's pride! It got in the way of her eating food
left by the dead...She'd rather suffer than eat that what was offered by the
dying. And it got in the way of her admitting to lice which caused everyone
else to catch them! But, she did survive and her eyebrows grew back!
LOL...
Take care,
Heidi
Heidi,

I'm 45 and my Mother came from a farm in Ontario when she was 19 in '42
(year of my parents marriage). They were on the verge of starving during
the Depression. Any twit who thinks that Europe was the only place not
hungry before, after or during the war and people on this side of the "pond"
didn't have to face it, are f**king fools.

My Mother turned 81 last December 19th. She was from a family of 8, she's
of 4 now.


What I'm trying to say is that food wasn't abundant in the depression days,
so why do people think food was widely available during the mid 1940's.


PS.

My Mother had "me" when she was 35. Damn late!
Heidi Graw
2003-12-31 09:39:55 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Gord Webster
Any twit who thinks that Europe was the only place not
hungry before, after or during the war and people on this side of the "pond"
didn't have to face it, are f**king fools.
Agreed...We have to remember that there was WWI...after which there was a
brief period for recovery before the stockmarket crash that lead to the
depression which gave rise to WWII. People of my Grandmother's age on
either side of the pond lived through all those horrid times. And after
WWII, there was the hard work and expense of rebuilding.
Post by Gord Webster
What I'm trying to say is that food wasn't abundant in the depression days,
so why do people think food was widely available during the mid 1940's.
I don't know... Whatever was in storage could not have been all that much.
If there had been those isolated cases of food wastage, it could not have
been done at a huge scale. What Werner witnessed was an act of cruelty
perpetrated by a few American assholes who couldn't even care about the
welfare of their own fellow American soldiers! Burning food that *other*
Americans patrolling Berlin could have eaten! Btw, who was at home in
America to sow and reap the harvests *there?* Women, young boys and old
men?

I remember my Grandmother telling me word had reached her in the Russian
occupied zone that American women complained they had no silk stockings.
She could only shake her head and mutter, "I should have such problems!"

Take care,
Heidi
Post by Gord Webster
PS.
My Mother had "me" when she was 35. Damn late!
Gord Webster
2003-12-31 09:58:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)
Post by Gord Webster
Any twit who thinks that Europe was the only place not
hungry before, after or during the war and people on this side of the
"pond"
Post by Gord Webster
didn't have to face it, are f**king fools.
Agreed...We have to remember that there was WWI...after which there was a
brief period for recovery before the stockmarket crash that lead to the
depression which gave rise to WWII. People of my Grandmother's age on
either side of the pond lived through all those horrid times. And after
WWII, there was the hard work and expense of rebuilding.
Post by Gord Webster
What I'm trying to say is that food wasn't abundant in the depression
days,
Post by Gord Webster
so why do people think food was widely available during the mid 1940's.
I don't know... Whatever was in storage could not have been all that much.
If there had been those isolated cases of food wastage, it could not have
been done at a huge scale. What Werner witnessed was an act of cruelty
perpetrated by a few American assholes who couldn't even care about the
welfare of their own fellow American soldiers! Burning food that *other*
Americans patrolling Berlin could have eaten! Btw, who was at home in
America to sow and reap the harvests *there?* Women, young boys and old
men?
I remember my Grandmother telling me word had reached her in the Russian
occupied zone that American women complained they had no silk stockings.
She could only shake her head and mutter, "I should have such problems!"
Take care,
Heidi
My best friend's father was too young for the war, he's 74 now, His son
(my best friend) had his wedding at "The Legion" and it's not to his
detriment, it's to his Father's background from WWI. I'm a member of my
local legion due to my ancestry. I was aghast (I didn't know that it could
be so) that your Dad was accepted as a member from the German forces when
we, as Canadians have issues with "Turban wearing people", as said.


Your Dad had a lot of "Guts". :) I can see no doubt that your Father
was the kind of "Immigrant" sought by so many once the war ended.

Your story told the tale of a good and strong man. Thanks for that.
Heidi Graw
2003-12-31 11:18:35 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Gord Webster
I was aghast (I didn't know that it could
be so) that your Dad was accepted as a member from the German forces when
we, as Canadians have issues with "Turban wearing people", as said.
Dad wasn't wearing a turban when he signed in. ;-)
Post by Gord Webster
Your Dad had a lot of "Guts". :)
He didn't have to be "gutsy" to join that particular Legion. An Irishman
living in our neighbourhood sponsored my Dad. He vouched that Dad was of
good character and should be allowed to become a member. Besides, Dad could
not be drunk under the table. Good old Paddy was long gone under it before
Dad even felt a bit tipsy! And THAT'S what impressed this Irishman! LOL..
;-) Paddy also didn't have a car. So, it was handy to have Dad, who always
remained sober enough, to drive him home...

And as it turned out, there were other German veterans who had also been
allowed to join prior to my Dad's arrival. So, it wasn't unusual for a
Kraut, a Limey, a Paddy, a Komrad Schnurschu, and gawds knows who else to
sit around one table exchanging war stories. It may have been a Canadian
Legion, but it took on an International flaire....former enemies welcome!
;-)
Post by Gord Webster
I can see no doubt that your Father
was the kind of "Immigrant" sought by so many once the war ended.
Our other relatives had tried to warn Dad that there were no jobs to be had.
The unemployment rate was really high. But, that didn't deter him. He came
over anyway and within two weeks he landed a job as a machinist with the
airlines. The airlines also arranged for free to fly over the rest of our
family...Mom and us kids. We had the airplane all to ourselves 'cause it
was an empty charter flying back to Canada. Talk about personal attention
from the steward and stewardesses! We could also stretch out and sleep
anywhere on any of the seats! We had so much fun on that flight. The
airlines also paid for the shipping of the crates due to arrive by boat!
How Dad managed to get such a deal from the airlines, I don't know. They
must have been awfully impressed with his resume and the interview. He was
a skilled immigrant who could speak and write English! ;-)
Post by Gord Webster
Your story told the tale of a good and strong man.
Well...he may have kept his eyes closed whenever he had to shoot, but
overall, he was no coward. He exuded confidence and never let himself
behave like a degenerate. It was his character that gained him friends, not
his nationality.
Post by Gord Webster
Thanks for that.
You're welcome, Gord. It was a pleasure to be able to have such a nice
discussion with you. That's a rare thing on usenet! ;-)

Take care,
Heidi
Kurt Knoll
2003-12-31 13:19:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gord Webster
Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)
Post by Gord Webster
Any twit who thinks that Europe was the only place not
hungry before, after or during the war and people on this side of the
"pond"
Post by Gord Webster
didn't have to face it, are f**king fools.
Agreed...We have to remember that there was WWI...after which there was a
brief period for recovery before the stockmarket crash that lead to the
depression which gave rise to WWII. People of my Grandmother's age on
either side of the pond lived through all those horrid times. And after
WWII, there was the hard work and expense of rebuilding.
Post by Gord Webster
What I'm trying to say is that food wasn't abundant in the
depression
Post by Gord Webster
Post by Heidi Graw
days,
Post by Gord Webster
so why do people think food was widely available during the mid 1940's.
I don't know... Whatever was in storage could not have been all that much.
If there had been those isolated cases of food wastage, it could not have
been done at a huge scale. What Werner witnessed was an act of cruelty
perpetrated by a few American assholes who couldn't even care about the
welfare of their own fellow American soldiers! Burning food that *other*
Americans patrolling Berlin could have eaten! Btw, who was at home in
America to sow and reap the harvests *there?* Women, young boys and old
men?
I remember my Grandmother telling me word had reached her in the Russian
occupied zone that American women complained they had no silk stockings.
She could only shake her head and mutter, "I should have such problems!"
Take care,
Heidi
My best friend's father was too young for the war, he's 74 now, His son
(my best friend) had his wedding at "The Legion" and it's not to his
detriment, it's to his Father's background from WWI. I'm a member of my
local legion due to my ancestry. I was aghast (I didn't know that it could
be so) that your Dad was accepted as a member from the German forces when
we, as Canadians have issues with "Turban wearing people", as said.
Your Dad had a lot of "Guts". :) I can see no doubt that your Father
was the kind of "Immigrant" sought by so many once the war ended.
Your story told the tale of a good and strong man. Thanks for that.
Her Dad was Fortunate having lived in a Area where the Legion Members
have been more Tolerant. It would certainly not have been possibly in
the Town where I have lived in. I have found the British to be more
understanding toward the Germans than the Canadians. I once gave a ride
to an older Englishman in 1957 here he was a war Veteran. I dolt him
about that I was sorry what happened in world war II. He then Told me we
were throwing things at each other and lets forget about the whole thing
where else the Canadians would have sworn at me and would say shut up
you fucking Sqarehead.

Kurt Knoll.
=
Heidi Graw
2004-01-01 11:54:38 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Kurt Knoll
I once gave a ride
to an older Englishman in 1957 here he was a war Veteran. I dolt him
about that I was sorry what happened in world war II.
Whatever for? They were not your decisions or actions to apologize for.
And neither did any Germans elect you to speak on their behalf! Let those
who made the decisions, issued the orders, and acted on them to be
accountable for whatever happened in WWII.
Post by Kurt Knoll
He then Told me we
were throwing things at each other and lets forget about the whole thing
Smart man! I think you kinda embarrassed him for putting him on the spot by
asking him to forgive you. Forgive you for something you did not do, nor
even had a part in? Come on, Kurt! Wise up! You don't need to assume
other people's guilt!
Post by Kurt Knoll
where else the Canadians would have sworn at me and would say shut up
you fucking Sqarehead.
My father didn't approach *any* Canadian asking him/her to forgive him. The
post-war trials placed blame where necessary and appropriate. They didn't
haul your butt into the courts, did they? YOU have nothing to apologise for
things that occured during WWII.

There was one occasion in the Legion hall where one jackass overheard my
father and his buddies talking. This guy stood up in his drunken stupor and
shouted at my father, "You f*cking Nazi! Get the f*ck out of here!" Dad
didn't say a thing. He just got out of his chair, walked coolly and calmly
up to the guy. And before you knew it, "POW" he punched the guy in the face
just once. That one punch was enough to lay flat that idiot. His Allied
buddies roared with laughter and said, "Good for you!" Dad just grinned and
bought his friends a round of beer as a thank-you gesture. ;-) The guy Dad
punched out never bothered him again.

Take care,
Heidi
John Baglow
2004-01-01 15:15:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gord Webster
What was the North American view on importing the Jews to America and
Canada
Post by Gord Webster
when some were escaping the Third Reich?
"One is too many"
Quote from the Prime Minister on the 5 dollar bill (McKenzie King),
referring to Jewish immigrants fleeing the Nazi regime.
Actually, from his immigration minister (in those days, director of
the Immigration Branch of the Department of Mines and Resources, if
you can believe it), Frederick Charles Blair.

--John Baglow
Kurt Knoll
2003-12-31 13:09:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)
Post by Gord Webster
I want you to know that I think that this thread is one of the best I've
read all year.
Thank you, Gord. It is the dead of winter and story-telling seems to be
appropriate for this time of year. And since you enjoy this thread
so
Post by A***@somewhere.com
much,
Post by Heidi Graw
I'll add another story if you don't mind. :-)
You'll remember my telling you about my Grandmother's experience
during
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the
Post by Heidi Graw
Russian occupation. Well...prior to that, war was raging over the land.
The civilian population was often uprooted to take them to safer quarters.
My Grandmother had to move with her 4 children several times...4 or
5
Post by A***@somewhere.com
times
Post by Heidi Graw
at least. During one of these evacuations they boarded a train that
was
Post by A***@somewhere.com
jam
Post by Heidi Graw
packed full of people. Grandma complained there were no window seats for
her and her children. She had to make do huddling in an aisle on
the
Post by A***@somewhere.com
floor
Post by Heidi Graw
with solid walls on either side.
The train rattled along the tracks for days on end, criss-crossing the
countryside. Each day, Grandma was given only one bowl of watery
soup and
Post by A***@somewhere.com
a
Post by Heidi Graw
small crust of bread to share between herself and her 4 children.
The
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
little supplies that she had been able to pack prior to the trip
quickly
Post by A***@somewhere.com
ran
Post by Heidi Graw
out. They were all extremely hungry, cold and miserable.
All of a sudden bombs exploded all around them...one exploded so close it
shattered the windows of the train People were dead and dying.
Blood and
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
guts was everywhere. Grandma and her children were spared because the
shards of glass and shrapnel did not get close to where they had been
huddling. Horrified, all Grandma could do was thank the Lord for
saving
Post by A***@somewhere.com
her
Post by Heidi Graw
and her children. She broke down and cried while chaos reigned
around
Post by A***@somewhere.com
her.
Post by Heidi Graw
The dying offered the scraps of food they had in their pockets.
Other
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
survivors also picked through the corpses to find anything at all
that
Post by A***@somewhere.com
might
Post by Heidi Graw
have been edible. My mother was too shocked, too appalled to accept that
what a dying man was offering her with his bloodied hands. My aunt,
however, quickly scrambled over the dead and joined the others in
search
Post by A***@somewhere.com
of
Post by Heidi Graw
food. She was considerably more pragmatic about the whole thing and
managed
Post by Heidi Graw
to squirrel away enough for the other two siblings and herself.
Although the bomb shattered windows the train kept moving along. It
had
Post by A***@somewhere.com
to
Post by Heidi Graw
and it did. The damage did not interfere with the trains mobility.
The
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
rails had not been hit. It kept moving until it was safe enough to
stop
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and
Post by Heidi Graw
attend to the dead and dying. The survivors were tranfered to another
train. This time, Grandma allowed herself and her children to be placed
where the officials thought it was best...away from the windows and
doorways!
For two weeks they were constantly on the move. The hunger was the worst.
Mom lost her eyebrows, she lost a lot of weight and ended up sick with
diphtheria. And while Mom was recouperating in a hospital, she
noticed
Post by A***@somewhere.com
she
Post by Heidi Graw
had lice. She was too embarrassed to tell anyone...so...the whole
hospital
Post by Heidi Graw
ended up infested! My mother's pride! It got in the way of her
eating
Post by A***@somewhere.com
food
Post by Heidi Graw
left by the dead...She'd rather suffer than eat that what was
offered by
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the
Post by Heidi Graw
dying. And it got in the way of her admitting to lice which caused
everyone
Post by Heidi Graw
else to catch them! But, she did survive and her eyebrows grew back!
LOL...
Take care,
Heidi
Heidi,
I'm 45 and my Mother came from a farm in Ontario when she was 19 in '42
(year of my parents marriage). They were on the verge of starving during
the Depression. Any twit who thinks that Europe was the only place not
hungry before, after or during the war and people on this side of the "pond"
didn't have to face it, are f**king fools.
My Mother turned 81 last December 19th. She was from a family of 8, she's
of 4 now.
What I'm trying to say is that food wasn't abundant in the depression days,
so why do people think food was widely available during the mid 1940's.
PS.
My Mother had "me" when she was 35. Damn late!
There were plenty of cases where the food was intentionally withheld.
After the war there was the Morgenthau plan partly in place that called
for the Starvation of the Germans. It was only after the outbreak of the
Cold War between Russia and America when the situation changed somewhat.
America needed the Germans as an Buffer against Communism then.

Kurt Knoll.
=
Iskandar Baharuddin
2003-12-31 15:06:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gord Webster
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)
Post by Gord Webster
I want you to know that I think that this thread is one of the
best I've
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Gord Webster
read all year.
Thank you, Gord. It is the dead of winter and story-telling seems
to be
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
appropriate for this time of year. And since you enjoy this thread
so
Post by A***@somewhere.com
much,
Post by Heidi Graw
I'll add another story if you don't mind. :-)
You'll remember my telling you about my Grandmother's experience
during
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the
Post by Heidi Graw
Russian occupation. Well...prior to that, war was raging over the
land.
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
The civilian population was often uprooted to take them to safer
quarters.
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
My Grandmother had to move with her 4 children several times...4 or
5
Post by A***@somewhere.com
times
Post by Heidi Graw
at least. During one of these evacuations they boarded a train that
was
Post by A***@somewhere.com
jam
Post by Heidi Graw
packed full of people. Grandma complained there were no window
seats for
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
her and her children. She had to make do huddling in an aisle on
the
Post by A***@somewhere.com
floor
Post by Heidi Graw
with solid walls on either side.
The train rattled along the tracks for days on end, criss-crossing
the
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
countryside. Each day, Grandma was given only one bowl of watery
soup and
Post by A***@somewhere.com
a
Post by Heidi Graw
small crust of bread to share between herself and her 4 children.
The
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
little supplies that she had been able to pack prior to the trip
quickly
Post by A***@somewhere.com
ran
Post by Heidi Graw
out. They were all extremely hungry, cold and miserable.
All of a sudden bombs exploded all around them...one exploded so
close it
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
shattered the windows of the train People were dead and dying.
Blood and
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
guts was everywhere. Grandma and her children were spared because
the
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
shards of glass and shrapnel did not get close to where they had
been
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
huddling. Horrified, all Grandma could do was thank the Lord for
saving
Post by A***@somewhere.com
her
Post by Heidi Graw
and her children. She broke down and cried while chaos reigned
around
Post by A***@somewhere.com
her.
Post by Heidi Graw
The dying offered the scraps of food they had in their pockets.
Other
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
survivors also picked through the corpses to find anything at all
that
Post by A***@somewhere.com
might
Post by Heidi Graw
have been edible. My mother was too shocked, too appalled to accept
that
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
what a dying man was offering her with his bloodied hands. My aunt,
however, quickly scrambled over the dead and joined the others in
search
Post by A***@somewhere.com
of
Post by Heidi Graw
food. She was considerably more pragmatic about the whole thing and
managed
Post by Heidi Graw
to squirrel away enough for the other two siblings and herself.
Although the bomb shattered windows the train kept moving along. It
had
Post by A***@somewhere.com
to
Post by Heidi Graw
and it did. The damage did not interfere with the trains mobility.
The
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
rails had not been hit. It kept moving until it was safe enough to
stop
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and
Post by Heidi Graw
attend to the dead and dying. The survivors were tranfered to
another
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
train. This time, Grandma allowed herself and her children to be
placed
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
where the officials thought it was best...away from the windows and
doorways!
For two weeks they were constantly on the move. The hunger was the
worst.
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
Mom lost her eyebrows, she lost a lot of weight and ended up sick
with
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
diphtheria. And while Mom was recouperating in a hospital, she
noticed
Post by A***@somewhere.com
she
Post by Heidi Graw
had lice. She was too embarrassed to tell anyone...so...the whole
hospital
Post by Heidi Graw
ended up infested! My mother's pride! It got in the way of her
eating
Post by A***@somewhere.com
food
Post by Heidi Graw
left by the dead...She'd rather suffer than eat that what was
offered by
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the
Post by Heidi Graw
dying. And it got in the way of her admitting to lice which caused
everyone
Post by Heidi Graw
else to catch them! But, she did survive and her eyebrows grew
back!
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Heidi Graw
LOL...
Take care,
Heidi
Heidi,
I'm 45 and my Mother came from a farm in Ontario when she was 19 in
'42
Post by A***@somewhere.com
(year of my parents marriage). They were on the verge of starving
during
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the Depression. Any twit who thinks that Europe was the only place
not
Post by A***@somewhere.com
hungry before, after or during the war and people on this side of the
"pond"
Post by A***@somewhere.com
didn't have to face it, are f**king fools.
My Mother turned 81 last December 19th. She was from a family of 8,
she's
Post by A***@somewhere.com
of 4 now.
What I'm trying to say is that food wasn't abundant in the depression
days,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
so why do people think food was widely available during the mid
1940's.
Post by A***@somewhere.com
PS.
My Mother had "me" when she was 35. Damn late!
There were plenty of cases where the food was intentionally withheld.
After the war there was the Morgenthau plan partly in place that called
for the Starvation of the Germans. It was only after the outbreak of the
Cold War between Russia and America when the situation changed somewhat.
America needed the Germans as an Buffer against Communism then.
Kurt Knoll.
=
I beg to differ. The Morgenthau plan was overturned in 1948 because of
strong opposition from the second level of government and the army, and the
role of Herbert Hoover.

Remember that the Morgenthau plan was formulated in 1944, when everyone was
seriously pissed off with the Germans.

It would have been a major tragedy had the Morgenthau plan been implemented
in full - but it was not. Instead, aid started to flow, leading to the
then-famous German "economic miracle".

Izzy
Werner Knoll
2003-12-31 19:22:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gord Webster
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)
Post by Werner Knoll
Whenever there was a news report in the press of what the Germans
done,
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Werner Knoll
this guys made sure that we were made to look bad.
This guy's waited till lunch time and got everybody worked up to have
a go
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Werner Knoll
at us.
We were guilty for being Germans. Funny Jewish people in Germany were
guilty for being Jews. Something to think about.
I hear ya, Werner. Back in '66 and well into the '70's the anti-German
sentiments still rang quite clearly and loudly in Canada. At school, a
day
Post by Heidi Graw
didn't go by without some jackass calling me a NAZI and a Jew Killer. I
hated those "Remembrance Day" ceremonies at school, because those
triggered
Post by Heidi Graw
another round of attacks on me.
If we would not have been around, they would have found somebody else to
insult.
Post by Heidi Graw
So, what got me through? My very best friend was a Canadian girl of
British
Post by Heidi Graw
and Irish background. I also had an example of my parents and their
friends. I knew it was o.k. to be German. Those who attacked me were
just
Post by Heidi Graw
idiots. I dismissed them and made a conscious effort to walk straight
and
Post by Heidi Graw
proud!
The first thing my Dad did when he arrived in Canada was to join the
local
Post by Heidi Graw
Canadian Legion. There he made a huge number of friends who were
veterans
Post by Heidi Graw
of the Allied Forces, including a Russian or two. Despite my being
underage, he insisted I come with him to sit around the Legion table to
hear
Post by Heidi Graw
the stories of the warriors...real warriors...the kind who know a
soldier's
Post by Heidi Graw
duty and who, after a battle had been won or lost, will recognize each
other's bravery and heroics. Our house was consistently filled with
friends
Post by Heidi Graw
who were Canadian of a grand variety of cultural backgrounds. Our house
parties pretty much reflected the UN. ;-) Our Kraut Castle became a
magnet
Post by Heidi Graw
for the neighbourhood to gather 'round. Mom always managed to fill up
the
Post by Heidi Graw
table with all kinds of good food that Canadians had never eaten before.
And Dad spent his time educating our neighbours about German culture,
arts
Post by Heidi Graw
and music.
My best friends were Canadian WWII veterans who told me what they went
through. It was always those who were not in the war who became experts of
what
is right and wrong.
One of this guy's told me a story to tell me that he is on my side...
****************************************
Tom Dick and Harry went with Fritz the "Kraut" for a swim. As they
arrived at the swimming pool the weather changed and it started to rain.
Dick said: Hurry up guy's, we better run home before the rain gets too
heavy. All four ran like hell but did not make it.
They knocked on the door of a small farmhouse and asked if they could
stay till the rain stopped?
Sure said the farmer and let them in. He asked the kids who and what
their parents are and Fritz told him that his parents are Germans.
Well said the farmer; you three boy's go right over to the fireplace and
warm your self up and you "Square head" go right over to the open window
and stay there.
Fritz watches his friends as they were talking to the farmer till Harry
said that he had a dream last night.
The farmer asked him what kind of dream he had last night? Oh said
Harry; he was dreaming last night that he was in heaven.
Now the farmer turned around and said: How about you Square head? Did
you have a dream last night too?
As a matter of fact I did said Fritz. What was your dream the farmer
asked Fritz? Fritz said that he dreamed last night that he was in Hell.
Now this got the attention of his friends and they liked too know how it
was there, so they asked him?
Well-said Fritz. It was very much like here.. I was standing on the
window as the cold wind was blowing around me and all you guys were
standing around the fireplace.
********************************************
Post by Heidi Graw
On Sunday mornings, when the church bells rang, Dad blared Wagner's
"Goetterdaemmerung" over the outside speakers of our house. So, while
angels were calling the Christian folk, Dad unleashed his Valkyries to
go
Post by Heidi Graw
screaming after them! ;-) He also introduced "Fasching" into the
Legion
Post by Heidi Graw
Hall. The man had an attitude and a character that endeared him even to
his
Post by Heidi Graw
worst opposition. Walk tall, walk proud! You did your duty. You did
nothing to be ashamed of. His Allied Friends agreed. And it was my
parents
Post by Heidi Graw
and their friends to whose example I look to that made me realize it's
o.k.
Post by Heidi Graw
to be German. It's o.k. to let the whole world know that and I didn't
have
Post by Heidi Graw
to cower before anyone. I didn't have to feel ashamed. And I certainly
didn't have to fall victim to discrimination.
Post by Werner Knoll
Werner Knoll
If you say the truth in a democracy. The masses will hang you
Plato 427 - 374? BC
Then let them hang me! I'd rather die speaking the truth than live with
lies clinging to my tongue.
Take care,
Heidi
Crimes and Mercies by James Bacque ISBN 0 316 64070 0
The story about German civilian's after the war
The Immigrant Years by Barry Broadfoot
ISBN 0-88894-519-1
The story Immigrants coming to Canada after the war.
Werner Knoll
I haven't been that interested in the can.politics newsgroup for all that
long, and because it tends to be more a forum of partisan politics which all
need more truth and fewer lies, I haven't had the desire to say much more
than pissing on those who have extreme sets of values.
I want you to know that I think that this thread is one of the best I've
read all year. I have a friend from the 1970's who's father was 16 or so
when he was captured by the Soviets in the defence of Berlin and finally
released in 1950 from a camp (he was given his uniform back that day)..
Later, he went on to become successful with a German company in Canada
(Volkswagen). The stories I've read by you guys paint a similar picture.
Thanks for your stories. My (late) Father fought in WWII first for the
Navy and then with the RCAF and never had much that he felt like discussing,
but who can blame him? He never had an issue with anyone "post war"
because of nationality, so I assumed so much for many.
I am crying...

Thank you very much.

Werner Knoll
Ralph Kunkle
2003-12-30 21:26:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Eisenhower's Holocaust - His Slaughter Of 1.7 Million Germans
http://www.rense.com/general46/germ.htm
Author Not Known
12-28-03
Author unknown? And I'm supposed to take this as a credible
account?

I read Peter Worthington's stories on this and the (and he) were
quite credible. Worthington is a long time journalist who comes
from a military family and was an officer during the Korean war.
He's hardly anti-American or left wing. The Americans apparently
acted miserably and brutally towards captured German POWs after
the war. Supposedly the British refused to go along with them,
however, and their prisoners were treated as POWs, not "DEFs".
Heidi Graw
2003-12-30 21:47:52 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Ralph Kunkle
I read Peter Worthington's stories on this and the (and he) were
quite credible.
Ralph, I don't doubt abuses took place. War is an ugly business...it
unleashes the worst in everyone. Yet, I really to have to wonder about
examinations to establish who were the worst offenders and tallying up the
abuses. They killed a million, they two, and those ones ten. What is the
purpose for it? What will that accomplish? During war times, people get
killed...and *all* involved in war are guilty. Weighing one's guilt to see
if some are more guilty than others is, imo, rather pointless.

Take care,
Heidi
Bernardz
2003-12-30 10:59:42 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@somewhere.com>, ***@somewhere.com
says...
Post by A***@somewhere.com
God, I hate the Germans..." (Dwight David Eisenhower in a letter to his
wife in September, 1944)
Just for the record Eisenhower was of German origin.
--
A terrorist kills for publicity.

24th saying of Bernard
Theseus Oblivion
2003-12-30 15:15:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernardz
Just for the record Eisenhower was of German origin.
the same way hitler was of jewish origin ?
--
wer scih an Rhtcecrhseibflrehen afunghaet, vreheflt dsa Tmhea!
Bernardz
2003-12-30 16:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theseus Oblivion
Post by Bernardz
Just for the record Eisenhower was of German origin.
the same way hitler was of jewish origin ?
The exact nature of Hitler origins are unclear. It is doubtful if he had
any Jewish origin but it is not impossible. On the other hand Eisenhower
did come mainly from a German background although he did have some Irish
in him.

Here is a copy of his family tree.
http://www.dwightdeisenhower.com/eisenhowers.html
--
A terrorist kills for publicity.

24th saying of Bernard
John Baglow
2003-12-30 22:16:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Eisenhower's Holocaust - His Slaughter Of 1.7 Million Germans
http://www.rense.com/general46/germ.htm
Author Not Known
12-28-03
This stuff all stems from James Bacque's "Other Losses"--now completely debunked:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html

Want a war criminal? Try Henry Kissinger.

--John Baglow
Iskandar Baharuddin
2003-12-30 22:32:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Baglow
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Eisenhower's Holocaust - His Slaughter Of 1.7 Million Germans
http://www.rense.com/general46/germ.htm
Author Not Known
12-28-03
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html
Wanted to see this, but got a "page not found".

Izzy
Post by John Baglow
Want a war criminal? Try Henry Kissinger.
--John Baglow
Heidi Graw
2003-12-30 23:35:05 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
Post by John Baglow
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html
Wanted to see this, but got a "page not found".
Izzy
The linked worked for me. Perhaps, try again. It pretty much redeems
Eisenhower of any gross misconduct.

Take care,
Heidi
Iskandar Baharuddin
2003-12-31 00:49:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)
Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
Post by John Baglow
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html
Wanted to see this, but got a "page not found".
Izzy
The linked worked for me. Perhaps, try again. It pretty much redeems
Eisenhower of any gross misconduct.
Take care,
Heidi
Joe
2003-12-31 01:00:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)
Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
Post by John Baglow
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html
Wanted to see this, but got a "page not found".
Izzy
The linked worked for me. Perhaps, try again. It pretty much redeems
Eisenhower of any gross misconduct.
Apparently Bacque claimed there was not a serious food shortage in Europe at
the time. In several of my university courses was an older student who was
born in Britain. He and a German professor, one day, got into a friendly
discussion about food after the war. Both were young boys after the war
(one in Britain and one in Germany). Both reminisced about food shortages
that went on after the war for years. This conversation was in the early
'70's long before Bacque's claim otherwise.
Kurt Knoll
2003-12-31 02:41:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe
Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html
Post by Joe
Post by Heidi Graw
Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
Wanted to see this, but got a "page not found".
Izzy
The linked worked for me. Perhaps, try again. It pretty much redeems
Eisenhower of any gross misconduct.
Apparently Bacque claimed there was not a serious food shortage in Europe at
the time. In several of my university courses was an older student who was
born in Britain. He and a German professor, one day, got into a friendly
discussion about food after the war. Both were young boys after the war
(one in Britain and one in Germany). Both reminisced about food shortages
that went on after the war for years. This conversation was in the early
'70's long before Bacque's claim otherwise.
Believe it or not there was food around but when the Americans came
overnight there was none. Was it the Germans who were in control of it
after the war was over or was it the Americans. We eat the same food as
the cows did for many months. The Americas Dumped left over food on a
half a blocked away from our home. We were Hungry but the American
Soldier did not let us get near it. They did pour Gasoline over it and
Burned it down. Only after they have left we took sticks and spread the
fire apart and eat the leftover of maybe only a Handful remnants. Me and
my Brother were only about 12 Years old at that time.

Kurt Knoll.
=
Heidi Graw
2003-12-31 05:20:27 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Joe
Both reminisced about food shortages
that went on after the war for years. This conversation was in the early
'70's long before Bacque's claim otherwise.
Well, I know food was in short supply, especially in the cities. I don't
know if it was a genuine shortage or if food was withheld on purpose. My
father did tell me, however, that when he was released and returned home, he
immediately set out to work in the country and lived with a farmer's family
for several years. Each weekend he returned to Berlin carrying a basket of
fresh farm produce. If he had not done that, his own family would have
starved to death.

My mother's family didn't have it quite so bad. They had their own little
hobby farms that supplemented the meagre rations.
I do know the poor weather had damaged a lot of crops. But, if one had a
few chickens, a cow and a few pigs, one could get by. The small village
farmers pretty much stuck together to help each other out. My own relations
didn't say whether or not anyone came to confiscate their few remaining
animals. And if we read the account of those women who tried to feed
prisoners, it does not indicate to me the Americans were raiding and
pillaging the farmer's supplies.

Anyway, none of this is a concilation to those millions who had no means to
supplement what was needed. If foreign aid was denied them, we need only to
look at Iraq the the mess Americans have made to disrupt the main supply
lines. The foreign aid is not getting through, but local farmers and
herders are not unnecessarily being robbed.

Take care,
Heidi
Iskandar Baharuddin
2003-12-31 01:03:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)
Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
Post by John Baglow
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html
Wanted to see this, but got a "page not found".
Izzy
The linked worked for me. Perhaps, try again. It pretty much redeems
Eisenhower of any gross misconduct.
Take care,
Heidi
I did try again, and it works. Just a web glitch after all.

I have read this with great interest. It does an excellent job of debunking
the myth, in a calm and reasoned fashion.

I wonder if the original poster will read it.

Many thanks.
h***@nospam.com
2003-12-31 01:21:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)
Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
Post by John Baglow
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html
Wanted to see this, but got a "page not found".
Izzy
The linked worked for me. Perhaps, try again. It pretty much redeems
Eisenhower of any gross misconduct.
Take care,
Heidi
In addition, the US army conducted trials to find out the "minimum"
rations required to maintain health. Unfortunately this figure was used
to work out how much they should feed POWs. The problem was that the
trials were conducted on US soldiers in peak health while housed in a
typically over warm house. It had little relevance to the conditions
facing malnourished and exposed Axis soldiers at the end of the war.
Joe
2003-12-31 00:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
Post by John Baglow
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html
Wanted to see this, but got a "page not found".
I tried the link and it worked. It was a New York Times book review. Here
is, in part, what was written.

============

Our first conclusion was that Mr. Bacque had made a major historical
discovery. There _was_ wdiespread mistreatment of German prisoners in the
spring and summer of 1945. Men were beaten, denied water, forced to live in
open camps without shelter, given inadequate food rations and inadequate
medical care. Their mail was withheld. In some cases prisoners made a "soup"
of water and grass in order to deal with their hunger. Men did die
needlessly and inexcusably. This must be confronted, and it is to Mr.
Bacque's credit that he forces us to do so.

Our second conclusion was that when scholars do the necessary research, they
will find Mr. Bacque's work to be worse than worthless. It is seriously -
nay, spectacularly - flawed in its most fundamental aspects. Mr. Bacque
misuses documents; he misreads documents; he ignores contrary evidence; his
statistical methodology is hopelessly compromised; he makes no attempt to
look at comparative contexts; he puts words into the mouth of his principal
source; he ignores a readily available and absolutely critical source that
decisively deals with his central accusation; and, as a consequence of these
and and other shortcomings, he reaches conclusions and makes charges that
are demonstrably absurd.
Kurt Knoll
2003-12-31 02:32:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe
Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
Post by John Baglow
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html
Wanted to see this, but got a "page not found".
I tried the link and it worked. It was a New York Times book review.
Here
Post by Joe
is, in part, what was written.
============
Our first conclusion was that Mr. Bacque had made a major historical
discovery. There _was_ wdiespread mistreatment of German prisoners in the
spring and summer of 1945. Men were beaten, denied water, forced to live in
open camps without shelter, given inadequate food rations and
inadequate
Post by Joe
medical care. Their mail was withheld. In some cases prisoners made a "soup"
of water and grass in order to deal with their hunger. Men did die
needlessly and inexcusably. This must be confronted, and it is to Mr.
Bacque's credit that he forces us to do so.
Our second conclusion was that when scholars do the necessary
research, they
Post by Joe
will find Mr. Bacque's work to be worse than worthless. It is
seriously -
Post by Joe
nay, spectacularly - flawed in its most fundamental aspects. Mr. Bacque
misuses documents; he misreads documents; he ignores contrary
evidence; his
Post by Joe
statistical methodology is hopelessly compromised; he makes no attempt to
look at comparative contexts; he puts words into the mouth of his principal
source; he ignores a readily available and absolutely critical source that
decisively deals with his central accusation; and, as a consequence of these
and and other shortcomings, he reaches conclusions and makes charges that
are demonstrably absurd.
You sound more like a Jewish Liar Lawyer. dose your system always work
the same way. Only Jewish approved Historian and writers will qualify.
There are Plenty of German People still alive today or do you think all
of them are Fools. My recommendations to your is wash your guts with
Acid it is really needed to make and honest Human being out of you. Long
Lingers the Bitter taste of you dishonest people before anything else
can be Forgiven.

Kurt Knoll a Holocaust Survivor of your Holocaust Industry.

Kurt Knoll.
=
h***@nospam.com
2003-12-31 02:49:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe
Post by Joe
Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
Post by John Baglow
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html
Wanted to see this, but got a "page not found".
I tried the link and it worked. It was a New York Times book review.
Here
Post by Joe
is, in part, what was written.
============
Our first conclusion was that Mr. Bacque had made a major historical
discovery. There _was_ wdiespread mistreatment of German prisoners in
the
Post by Joe
spring and summer of 1945. Men were beaten, denied water, forced to
live in
Post by Joe
open camps without shelter, given inadequate food rations and
inadequate
Post by Joe
medical care. Their mail was withheld. In some cases prisoners made a
"soup"
Post by Joe
of water and grass in order to deal with their hunger. Men did die
needlessly and inexcusably. This must be confronted, and it is to Mr.
Bacque's credit that he forces us to do so.
Our second conclusion was that when scholars do the necessary
research, they
Post by Joe
will find Mr. Bacque's work to be worse than worthless. It is
seriously -
Post by Joe
nay, spectacularly - flawed in its most fundamental aspects. Mr.
Bacque
Post by Joe
misuses documents; he misreads documents; he ignores contrary
evidence; his
Post by Joe
statistical methodology is hopelessly compromised; he makes no attempt
to
Post by Joe
look at comparative contexts; he puts words into the mouth of his
principal
Post by Joe
source; he ignores a readily available and absolutely critical source
that
Post by Joe
decisively deals with his central accusation; and, as a consequence of
these
Post by Joe
and and other shortcomings, he reaches conclusions and makes charges
that
Post by Joe
are demonstrably absurd.
You sound more like a Jewish Liar Lawyer. dose your system always work
the same way. Only Jewish approved Historian and writers will qualify.
There are Plenty of German People still alive today or do you think all
of them are Fools. My recommendations to your is wash your guts with
Acid it is really needed to make and honest Human being out of you. Long
Lingers the Bitter taste of you dishonest people before anything else
can be Forgiven.
Kurt Knoll a Holocaust Survivor of your Holocaust Industry.
Kurt Knoll.
=
Look's like a happy recruit for the Hitler youth.
Kurt Knoll
2003-12-31 03:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
Post by Joe
Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
Post by John Baglow
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html
Wanted to see this, but got a "page not found".
I tried the link and it worked. It was a New York Times book review.
Here
Post by Joe
is, in part, what was written.
============
Our first conclusion was that Mr. Bacque had made a major historical
discovery. There _was_ wdiespread mistreatment of German prisoners in
the
Post by Joe
spring and summer of 1945. Men were beaten, denied water, forced to
live in
Post by Joe
open camps without shelter, given inadequate food rations and
inadequate
Post by Joe
medical care. Their mail was withheld. In some cases prisoners made a
"soup"
Post by Joe
of water and grass in order to deal with their hunger. Men did die
needlessly and inexcusably. This must be confronted, and it is to Mr.
Bacque's credit that he forces us to do so.
Our second conclusion was that when scholars do the necessary
research, they
Post by Joe
will find Mr. Bacque's work to be worse than worthless. It is
seriously -
Post by Joe
nay, spectacularly - flawed in its most fundamental aspects. Mr.
Bacque
Post by Joe
misuses documents; he misreads documents; he ignores contrary
evidence; his
Post by Joe
statistical methodology is hopelessly compromised; he makes no attempt
to
Post by Joe
look at comparative contexts; he puts words into the mouth of his
principal
Post by Joe
source; he ignores a readily available and absolutely critical source
that
Post by Joe
decisively deals with his central accusation; and, as a consequence of
these
Post by Joe
and and other shortcomings, he reaches conclusions and makes charges
that
Post by Joe
are demonstrably absurd.
You sound more like a Jewish Liar Lawyer. dose your system always work
the same way. Only Jewish approved Historian and writers will qualify.
There are Plenty of German People still alive today or do you think all
of them are Fools. My recommendations to your is wash your guts with
Acid it is really needed to make and honest Human being out of you. Long
Lingers the Bitter taste of you dishonest people before anything else
can be Forgiven.
Kurt Knoll a Holocaust Survivor of your Holocaust Industry.
Kurt Knoll.
=
Look's like a happy recruit for the Hitler youth.
Engage your Brain someday you will find out why the Americans have so
many Problems all around the world. Could it be because of the Blind
Folded support for Israel. Or could it be because of the Nazi. You guys
made your own bed and you can only blame yourself for it.

Kurt Knoll.
=
h***@nospam.com
2003-12-31 03:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
Post by Joe
Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
Post by John Baglow
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html
Wanted to see this, but got a "page not found".
I tried the link and it worked. It was a New York Times book
review.
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
Here
Post by Joe
is, in part, what was written.
============
Our first conclusion was that Mr. Bacque had made a major historical
discovery. There _was_ wdiespread mistreatment of German prisoners
in
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
the
Post by Joe
spring and summer of 1945. Men were beaten, denied water, forced to
live in
Post by Joe
open camps without shelter, given inadequate food rations and
inadequate
Post by Joe
medical care. Their mail was withheld. In some cases prisoners made
a
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
"soup"
Post by Joe
of water and grass in order to deal with their hunger. Men did die
needlessly and inexcusably. This must be confronted, and it is to
Mr.
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
Post by Joe
Bacque's credit that he forces us to do so.
Our second conclusion was that when scholars do the necessary
research, they
Post by Joe
will find Mr. Bacque's work to be worse than worthless. It is
seriously -
Post by Joe
nay, spectacularly - flawed in its most fundamental aspects. Mr.
Bacque
Post by Joe
misuses documents; he misreads documents; he ignores contrary
evidence; his
Post by Joe
statistical methodology is hopelessly compromised; he makes no
attempt
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
to
Post by Joe
look at comparative contexts; he puts words into the mouth of his
principal
Post by Joe
source; he ignores a readily available and absolutely critical
source
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
that
Post by Joe
decisively deals with his central accusation; and, as a consequence
of
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
these
Post by Joe
and and other shortcomings, he reaches conclusions and makes charges
that
Post by Joe
are demonstrably absurd.
You sound more like a Jewish Liar Lawyer. dose your system always
work
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
the same way. Only Jewish approved Historian and writers will
qualify.
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
There are Plenty of German People still alive today or do you think
all
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
of them are Fools. My recommendations to your is wash your guts with
Acid it is really needed to make and honest Human being out of you.
Long
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
Lingers the Bitter taste of you dishonest people before anything
else
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
can be Forgiven.
Kurt Knoll a Holocaust Survivor of your Holocaust Industry.
Kurt Knoll.
=
Look's like a happy recruit for the Hitler youth.
Engage your Brain someday you will find out why the Americans have so
many Problems all around the world. Could it be because of the Blind
Folded support for Israel. Or could it be because of the Nazi. You guys
made your own bed and you can only blame yourself for it.
Kurt Knoll.
=
It wasn't me that came up with "You sound more like a Jewish Liar
Lawyer", you sound like a first class bigot. It really does sound like
you and your family could have benefitted from one of General Patton's
forced visits to one of your ruthlessly efficient death camps. You are
bitter because you got a nasty time when you were 12 because you
happened to live in a country that inflicted about 30 million deaths to
your European neighbours and embarked on a campaign of genocidal
slaughter on Jews, Gypsies and a range of other minorities. And you have
the gall to get on your high horse because a number of badly behaved
allied soldiers burned some meat. Perhaps you should learn some
perspective. Those soldiers lost a few hundred thousand of their
comrades getting to your street, they had a right to be pissed, you are
dead lucky that they didn't behave like your beloved Wehrmacht when they
occupied towns across Europe.
I pity Canada for having taken in such human filth.
Diabolik
2003-12-31 11:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
Post by Joe
Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
Post by John Baglow
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html
Wanted to see this, but got a "page not found".
I tried the link and it worked. It was a New York Times book
review.
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
Here
Post by Joe
is, in part, what was written.
============
Our first conclusion was that Mr. Bacque had made a major historical
discovery. There _was_ wdiespread mistreatment of German prisoners
in
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
the
Post by Joe
spring and summer of 1945. Men were beaten, denied water, forced to
live in
Post by Joe
open camps without shelter, given inadequate food rations and
inadequate
Post by Joe
medical care. Their mail was withheld. In some cases prisoners made
a
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
"soup"
Post by Joe
of water and grass in order to deal with their hunger. Men did die
needlessly and inexcusably. This must be confronted, and it is to
Mr.
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
Post by Joe
Bacque's credit that he forces us to do so.
Our second conclusion was that when scholars do the necessary
research, they
Post by Joe
will find Mr. Bacque's work to be worse than worthless. It is
seriously -
Post by Joe
nay, spectacularly - flawed in its most fundamental aspects. Mr.
Bacque
Post by Joe
misuses documents; he misreads documents; he ignores contrary
evidence; his
Post by Joe
statistical methodology is hopelessly compromised; he makes no
attempt
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
to
Post by Joe
look at comparative contexts; he puts words into the mouth of his
principal
Post by Joe
source; he ignores a readily available and absolutely critical
source
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
that
Post by Joe
decisively deals with his central accusation; and, as a consequence
of
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
these
Post by Joe
and and other shortcomings, he reaches conclusions and makes charges
that
Post by Joe
are demonstrably absurd.
You sound more like a Jewish Liar Lawyer. dose your system always
work
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
the same way. Only Jewish approved Historian and writers will
qualify.
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
There are Plenty of German People still alive today or do you think
all
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
of them are Fools. My recommendations to your is wash your guts with
Acid it is really needed to make and honest Human being out of you.
Long
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
Lingers the Bitter taste of you dishonest people before anything
else
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
can be Forgiven.
Kurt Knoll a Holocaust Survivor of your Holocaust Industry.
Kurt Knoll.
=
Look's like a happy recruit for the Hitler youth.
Engage your Brain someday you will find out why the Americans have so
many Problems all around the world. Could it be because of the Blind
Folded support for Israel. Or could it be because of the Nazi. You guys
made your own bed and you can only blame yourself for it.
The problem is that americans think they own the world and know better than
anyone else.

The american history books say they saved Europe and that they are the
saviours of freedom. They are too stupid to know the truth.
Iskandar Baharuddin
2003-12-31 14:34:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Diabolik
Post by Joe
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
Post by Joe
Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
Post by John Baglow
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html
Wanted to see this, but got a "page not found".
I tried the link and it worked. It was a New York Times book
review.
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
Here
Post by Joe
is, in part, what was written.
============
Our first conclusion was that Mr. Bacque had made a major historical
discovery. There _was_ wdiespread mistreatment of German prisoners
in
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
the
Post by Joe
spring and summer of 1945. Men were beaten, denied water, forced to
live in
Post by Joe
open camps without shelter, given inadequate food rations and
inadequate
Post by Joe
medical care. Their mail was withheld. In some cases prisoners made
a
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
"soup"
Post by Joe
of water and grass in order to deal with their hunger. Men did die
needlessly and inexcusably. This must be confronted, and it is to
Mr.
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
Post by Joe
Bacque's credit that he forces us to do so.
Our second conclusion was that when scholars do the necessary
research, they
Post by Joe
will find Mr. Bacque's work to be worse than worthless. It is
seriously -
Post by Joe
nay, spectacularly - flawed in its most fundamental aspects. Mr.
Bacque
Post by Joe
misuses documents; he misreads documents; he ignores contrary
evidence; his
Post by Joe
statistical methodology is hopelessly compromised; he makes no
attempt
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
to
Post by Joe
look at comparative contexts; he puts words into the mouth of his
principal
Post by Joe
source; he ignores a readily available and absolutely critical
source
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
that
Post by Joe
decisively deals with his central accusation; and, as a consequence
of
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
these
Post by Joe
and and other shortcomings, he reaches conclusions and makes charges
that
Post by Joe
are demonstrably absurd.
You sound more like a Jewish Liar Lawyer. dose your system always
work
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
the same way. Only Jewish approved Historian and writers will
qualify.
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
There are Plenty of German People still alive today or do you think
all
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
of them are Fools. My recommendations to your is wash your guts with
Acid it is really needed to make and honest Human being out of you.
Long
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
Lingers the Bitter taste of you dishonest people before anything
else
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Joe
can be Forgiven.
Kurt Knoll a Holocaust Survivor of your Holocaust Industry.
Kurt Knoll.
=
Look's like a happy recruit for the Hitler youth.
Engage your Brain someday you will find out why the Americans have so
many Problems all around the world. Could it be because of the Blind
Folded support for Israel. Or could it be because of the Nazi. You guys
made your own bed and you can only blame yourself for it.
The problem is that americans think they own the world and know better than
anyone else.
The american history books say they saved Europe and that they are the
saviours of freedom. They are too stupid to know the truth.
Thanks for making that point. Just to round the discussion off, perhaps you
will let us know who did save Europe and freedom.

Of course, there are those who would argue that Europe still needs saving,
and the freedom of Europeans is being steadily eroded by Brussels.

Comments?

Izzy
John Baglow
2003-12-31 17:06:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph Kunkle
The link is to an article by Steven Ambrose, much of whose life
was based on worship of and writing about Eisenhower, and who was
a director emeritus of the Eisenhower museum. I came across this
a couple of years back, and can't remember all teh back and forth
arguments, but I remember Peter Worthington mentioning Ambrose,
and then debunking what he had to write. Worthington basically
agreed with Bacque.
First of all, here is the link to the article ("author unknown") that
started off this thread. Readers may be diverted by the top story. But
just search under "Eisenhower".

http://www.israelect.com/reference/Willie-Martin/Holohoax.html


Now, here is the biography and bibliography of Stephen Ambrose:

http://www.shs.starkville.k12.ms.us/mswm/MSWritersAndMusicians/writers/Ambrose.html

Used to be that someone who is an expert in a field--say,
history--would be given more credence than a newspaper columnist.
Instead, the expert's very expertise is held against him.

Worthington bought the Bacque line. I can find, however, no refutation
of Ambrose's review, and indeed PW would have attempted such at his
peril.

As for "Kunkle," note that not one fact Ambrose raises is rebutted:
instead, he is simply dismissed as an admirer of Eisenhower. This mode
of argument is known as "ad hominem."

--John Baglow
Werner Knoll
2003-12-31 19:56:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
The link is to an article by Steven Ambrose, much of whose life
was based on worship of and writing about Eisenhower, and who was
a director emeritus of the Eisenhower museum. I came across this
a couple of years back, and can't remember all teh back and forth
arguments, but I remember Peter Worthington mentioning Ambrose,
and then debunking what he had to write. Worthington basically
agreed with Bacque.
First of all, here is the link to the article ("author unknown") that
started off this thread. Readers may be diverted by the top story. But
just search under "Eisenhower".
http://www.israelect.com/reference/Willie-Martin/Holohoax.html
http://www.shs.starkville.k12.ms.us/mswm/MSWritersAndMusicians/writers/Amb
rose.html
Post by John Baglow
Used to be that someone who is an expert in a field--say,
history--would be given more credence than a newspaper columnist.
Instead, the expert's very expertise is held against him.
Worthington bought the Bacque line. I can find, however, no refutation
of Ambrose's review, and indeed PW would have attempted such at his
peril.
instead, he is simply dismissed as an admirer of Eisenhower. This mode
of argument is known as "ad hominem."
--John Baglow
Ambrose writes in Ike and the Disappearing Atrosities that Bacque's work
is worse than worthless?

Vancouver Province Monday, January 7, 2002

"Tainted history"

America's most popular historian, Stephen Ambrose, has admitted to copying
sentences and phrases from another historian's work for his latest
bestseller. The Wild Blue, about the Second World War bomber pilots...

Werner Knoll

I this the same Ambrose?
John Baglow
2003-12-31 22:27:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Baglow
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
The link is to an article by Steven Ambrose, much of whose life
was based on worship of and writing about Eisenhower, and who was
a director emeritus of the Eisenhower museum. I came across this
a couple of years back, and can't remember all teh back and forth
arguments, but I remember Peter Worthington mentioning Ambrose,
and then debunking what he had to write. Worthington basically
agreed with Bacque.
First of all, here is the link to the article ("author unknown") that
started off this thread. Readers may be diverted by the top story. But
just search under "Eisenhower".
http://www.israelect.com/reference/Willie-Martin/Holohoax.html
http://www.shs.starkville.k12.ms.us/mswm/MSWritersAndMusicians/writers/Amb
rose.html
Post by John Baglow
Used to be that someone who is an expert in a field--say,
history--would be given more credence than a newspaper columnist.
Instead, the expert's very expertise is held against him.
Worthington bought the Bacque line. I can find, however, no refutation
of Ambrose's review, and indeed PW would have attempted such at his
peril.
instead, he is simply dismissed as an admirer of Eisenhower. This mode
of argument is known as "ad hominem."
--John Baglow
Ambrose writes in Ike and the Disappearing Atrosities that Bacque's work
is worse than worthless?
Vancouver Province Monday, January 7, 2002
"Tainted history"
America's most popular historian, Stephen Ambrose, has admitted to copying
sentences and phrases from another historian's work for his latest
bestseller. The Wild Blue, about the Second World War bomber pilots...
Werner Knoll
I this the same Ambrose?
Yup. His sin was to publish, during his popular history days, some
short extracts by others without quotation marks--but *with*
footnotes. Now, why not come to grips with the points he makes in his
refutation of Bacque?

And if you don't like Ambrose, try Gunter Bischof and Brian Loring
Villa:

http://hnn.us/articles/1266.html

[Excerpt]

"The problem for Bacque is that he cannot read most of this massive
and exciting new scholarship because he does not read German. He also
does not read Russian. So the claims of his exhaustive research in the
"KGB archives" (which to our knowledge are only restrictively open to
researchers!) should be taken with a big grain of salt. Many stories
have surfaced about Russian archives opening their holdings
selectively to those who are willing to pay for it. Bacque's second
volume, Crimes and Mercies, was first published in German by Ullstein
in Berlin (a publishing house well aware of the popularity of
revisionist scholarship among German veteran circles). A panel of
scholars gathered at the annual German Studies Association meeting in
Salt Lake City in October 1999 and found the charges of Crimes and
Mercies even more extravagant and pig-headed than those proffered in
Other Losses. Here Bacque was construing a vast conspiracy about many
millions of German refugees perishing in Germany at the end of the war
as a result of Allied neglect. The GSA papers were never published,
however, since the business of refuting Bacque's claims again and
again and in detail gives more credence to his wild conspiracy
history. Trying to revive the debate now is yet another attempt by him
to gain acceptability in the scholarly community."

I'll take a person who occasionally lacks meticulousness over
punctuation to another who can't even read his sources any day.

--John Baglow
Werner Knoll
2004-01-01 03:12:13 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: John Baglow <***@travel-net.com>
Newsgroups:
aus.politics,ca.politics,can.politics,de.soc.politik.misc,nz.politics
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: Eisenhower's Holocaust
Post by John Baglow
Post by Werner Knoll
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
The link is to an article by Steven Ambrose, much of whose life
was based on worship of and writing about Eisenhower, and who was
a director emeritus of the Eisenhower museum. I came across this
a couple of years back, and can't remember all teh back and forth
arguments, but I remember Peter Worthington mentioning Ambrose,
and then debunking what he had to write. Worthington basically
agreed with Bacque.
[...]
Post by John Baglow
Post by Werner Knoll
Post by John Baglow
instead, he is simply dismissed as an admirer of Eisenhower. This mode
of argument is known as "ad hominem."
--John Baglow
Ambrose writes in Ike and the Disappearing Atrosities that Bacque's work
is worse than worthless?
Vancouver Province Monday, January 7, 2002
"Tainted history"
America's most popular historian, Stephen Ambrose, has admitted to copying
sentences and phrases from another historian's work for his latest
bestseller. The Wild Blue, about the Second World War bomber pilots...
Werner Knoll
I this the same Ambrose?
Yup. His sin was to publish, during his popular history days, some
short extracts by others without quotation marks--but *with*
footnotes. Now, why not come to grips with the points he makes in his
refutation of Bacque?
And if you don't like Ambrose, try Gunter Bischof and Brian Loring
http://hnn.us/articles/1266.html
[Excerpt]
"The problem for Bacque is that he cannot read most of this massive
and exciting new scholarship because he does not read German. He also
does not read Russian. So the claims of his exhaustive research in the
"KGB archives" (which to our knowledge are only restrictively open to
researchers!) should be taken with a big grain of salt. Many stories
have surfaced about Russian archives opening their holdings
selectively to those who are willing to pay for it. Bacque's second
volume, Crimes and Mercies, was first published in German by Ullstein
in Berlin (a publishing house well aware of the popularity of
revisionist scholarship among German veteran circles). A panel of
scholars gathered at the annual German Studies Association meeting in
Salt Lake City in October 1999 and found the charges of Crimes and
Mercies even more extravagant and pig-headed than those proffered in
Other Losses. Here Bacque was construing a vast conspiracy about many
millions of German refugees perishing in Germany at the end of the war
as a result of Allied neglect. The GSA papers were never published,
however, since the business of refuting Bacque's claims again and
again and in detail gives more credence to his wild conspiracy
history. Trying to revive the debate now is yet another attempt by him
to gain acceptability in the scholarly community."
I'll take a person who occasionally lacks meticulousness over
punctuation to another who can't even read his sources any day.
--John Baglow
Whose bread I eat, his song I sing... Ambrose knows which side of his
bread is the buttered!

I have both of Bacque books at my home... Not once was I interested in the
numbers he represented.

We were from 1943 on evacuated in a small village because we were bombed
out in Nuremberg.

There was an old man looking after us evacuees. He had only one arm and
looked as if he is suffering. Than the Americans came, the took him away
to one of those camps. We talked to this guy some time later and he told
us that he almost died in this camp!

The Americans brought with them some German prisoners of war when they
entered Geiselwind in 45. Some of this prisoners asked Kurt and me if we
could bring them some water to drink in German.


When we brought the water, the Americans chased us away.

My brother Jean, born 1925 a Aircraft mechanic in the German air force,
was captured by the British in 1945 and send to France as a slave laborer.

He said that many of his comrades died in this camps.

We as kid's were looking for food in the American kitchen and for doing so
were almost shot...

It looks to me the American soldiers were following Eisenhower's the same
way as German soldiers followed their commanders?

Werner Knoll
Ralph Kunkle
2003-12-31 21:27:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
The link is to an article by Steven Ambrose, much of whose
life
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
was based on worship of and writing about Eisenhower, and who
was
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
a director emeritus of the Eisenhower museum. I came across
this
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
a couple of years back, and can't remember all teh back and
forth
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
arguments, but I remember Peter Worthington mentioning
Ambrose,
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
and then debunking what he had to write. Worthington basically
agreed with Bacque.
Used to be that someone who is an expert in a field--say,
history--would be given more credence than a newspaper
columnist.
Post by John Baglow
Instead, the expert's very expertise is held against him.
You know very well that where academic reputations are at stake
academics will do almost anything to refute an opinon or article
which goes against everything they've been writing for decades.
The point being he had something to protect, while Worthington
had absolutely no axe to grind.
Post by John Baglow
Worthington bought the Bacque line. I can find, however, no
refutation
Post by John Baglow
of Ambrose's review, and indeed PW would have attempted such at his
peril.
The fact you can't find it is hardly evidence it does not exist.
It was fourteen years ago, after all, so it's hardly surprising
it isn't easily found on the web. I read it. And like
Worthington, I have no axe to grind with Eisenhower either. I was
surprised by the information, but was persuaded. And Worthington
did not merely take Bacque's word, but did his own research.
Whatever you think of his politics Worthington, son of a general,
has been a writer, reporter, editor and publisher for decades,
and was an infantry officer in Korea.
Post by John Baglow
As for "Kunkle," note that not one fact Ambrose raises is
instead, he is simply dismissed as an admirer of Eisenhower.
This mode
Post by John Baglow
of argument is known as "ad hominem."
A tack you take constantly, so don't bitch about it. However,
merely pointing out that one side has an obvious reason for bias
while the other has no such reason is not ad hominem. It is
merely supplying added information.
Ralph Kunkle
2003-12-31 22:00:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
The link is to an article by Steven Ambrose, much of whose
life
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
was based on worship of and writing about Eisenhower, and who
was
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
a director emeritus of the Eisenhower museum. I came across
this
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
a couple of years back, and can't remember all teh back and
forth
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
arguments, but I remember Peter Worthington mentioning
Ambrose,
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
and then debunking what he had to write. Worthington basically
agreed with Bacque.
First of all, here is the link to the article ("author
unknown") that
Post by John Baglow
started off this thread. Readers may be diverted by the top
story. But
Post by John Baglow
just search under "Eisenhower".
http://www.israelect.com/reference/Willie-Martin/Holohoax.html
http://www.shs.starkville.k12.ms.us/mswm/MSWritersAndMusicians/wr
iters/Ambrose.html
Post by John Baglow
Used to be that someone who is an expert in a field--say,
history--would be given more credence than a newspaper
columnist.
Post by John Baglow
Instead, the expert's very expertise is held against him.
But at least the newspaper columnist is not a plagiarist. In any
event, there is a rebuttal to Ambrose here.

http://hnn.us/articles/1266.html

...Soon after this discovery, there was placed in our hands the
"smoking gun" demanded by Forrest C. Pogue. This was in the form
of a letter sent from Eisenhower's HQ to all German cities and
towns under SHAEF's control, dated May 9 1945. In it, the Germans
are told that anyone who gathers together food for the purpose of
taking it to the prisoner of war camps was liable to be shot. It
was also a crime punishable by death to take food to the
prisoners. We have eye-witness evidence of the killing of several
women and of prisoners near them, by guards at American camps.
John Baglow
2004-01-01 15:43:47 UTC
Permalink
"Kurt Knoll" <***@uniserve.com> wrote in message news:<***@critter.monarch.net>...

[snip]
Post by Kurt Knoll
will be imposed it will be too late. As for your Holocaust the people
that are in control of it will make the decisions for all of us.
What, the Germans? You *were* in charge of it, but not, thankfully, any more.
As for the Americans, they obviously let some of you escape.

--John Baglow
John Baglow
2004-01-01 18:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Knoll
You are a typical American Fuckhead. Ellie Riefenstal was a Filmmaker
just as you have American Filmakers. If Riefestahl did have a Political
Agenta so have Americans on a much larger scale. You look more like a
typical American fanatic to me. Have a good look how much of a missery
has Createt since about the 1920 and learn frm it.
What a comedown--from Meisterjude to American in two posts!

How's your lampshade collection, Herr Dummkopf?

--John Baglow
Kurt Knoll
2004-01-01 22:52:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Baglow
Post by Kurt Knoll
You are a typical American Fuckhead. Ellie Riefenstal was a Filmmaker
just as you have American Filmakers. If Riefestahl did have a
Political
Post by John Baglow
Post by Kurt Knoll
Agenta so have Americans on a much larger scale. You look more like a
typical American fanatic to me. Have a good look how much of a missery
has Createt since about the 1920 and learn frm it.
What a comedown--from Meisterjude to American in two posts!
How's your lampshade collection, Herr Dummkopf?
--John Baglow
You can look it up on the Internet. The Lampshades from Isle Koch were
made out of Big skins. But no wonder the Defence was never allowed to
have a Forensic Testing done. Isle Koch's Son was so much Victimized by
you're Kind In-laws that he Committed suicide. Are you Proud of it you
Fuckead.

Kurt Knoll.
=
Ralph Kunkle
2003-12-31 16:38:35 UTC
Permalink
"Joe" <***@dropdead.com> wrote in message news:28pIb.457$***@newshog.newsread.com...
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html
Post by Joe
Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
Wanted to see this, but got a "page not found".
I tried the link and it worked. It was a New York Times book
review. Here
Post by Joe
is, in part, what was written.
============
Our first conclusion was that Mr. Bacque had made a major
historical
Post by Joe
discovery. There _was_ wdiespread mistreatment of German
prisoners in the
Post by Joe
spring and summer of 1945. Men were beaten, denied water,
forced to live in
Post by Joe
open camps without shelter, given inadequate food rations and
inadequate
Post by Joe
medical care. Their mail was withheld. In some cases prisoners
made a "soup"
Post by Joe
of water and grass in order to deal with their hunger. Men did
die
Post by Joe
needlessly and inexcusably. This must be confronted, and it is
to Mr.
Post by Joe
Bacque's credit that he forces us to do so.
Our second conclusion was that when scholars do the necessary
research, they
Post by Joe
will find Mr. Bacque's work to be worse than worthless. It is
seriously -
Post by Joe
nay, spectacularly - flawed in its most fundamental aspects.
Mr. Bacque
Post by Joe
misuses documents; he misreads documents; he ignores contrary
evidence; his
Post by Joe
statistical methodology is hopelessly compromised; he makes no
attempt to
Post by Joe
look at comparative contexts; he puts words into the mouth of
his principal
Post by Joe
source; he ignores a readily available and absolutely critical
source that
Post by Joe
decisively deals with his central accusation; and, as a
consequence of these
Post by Joe
and and other shortcomings, he reaches conclusions and makes
charges that
Post by Joe
are demonstrably absurd.
I remember Worthington mentioning this, and had a vague memory
that the author was somewhat biased. So I checked. Indeed, Steven
Ambrose was a huge Eisenhower fan, and director emeritus of the
Eisenhower museum. I can't remember exactly how Worthington then
went on to debunk what Ambrose wrote, but I remember he did.
Kurt Knoll
2003-12-31 01:06:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
Post by John Baglow
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Eisenhower's Holocaust - His Slaughter Of 1.7 Million Germans
http://www.rense.com/general46/germ.htm
Author Not Known
12-28-03
This stuff all stems from James Bacque's "Other Losses"--now
completely
Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
Post by John Baglow
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html
Wanted to see this, but got a "page not found".
Izzy
Post by John Baglow
Want a war criminal? Try Henry Kissinger.
--John Baglow
When one reads Mr Ambrose reads his explanation it will make once head
spin. Like in a well known Jewish way anyone that is not Pro Jewish gets
disqualified or only Political Correct writer will be Qualified. Well I
got News for you Guys I and Millions of Germans experienced all of what
he says in his book. And you Guys are the only Dishonest Parasites I
Know.

Kurt Knoll.
Kurt Knoll
2003-12-31 00:57:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Baglow
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Eisenhower's Holocaust - His Slaughter Of 1.7 Million Germans
http://www.rense.com/general46/germ.htm
Author Not Known
12-28-03
This stuff all stems from James Bacque's "Other Losses"--now
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html
Want a war criminal? Try Henry Kissinger.
--John Baglow
Did Ambrose talk to some of the Survivors of the Rein Mein Lager ?, I
don't think so I knew a fellow who was there. If some of the Survivors
still living in Germany would be allowed to write about it then we all
would know. The Histories of the Second world war is written by the
Victors and without input from the German People.

Kurt Knoll.
Ralph Kunkle
2003-12-31 16:42:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Eisenhower's Holocaust - His Slaughter Of 1.7 Million
Germans
Post by A***@somewhere.com
http://www.rense.com/general46/germ.htm
Author Not Known
12-28-03
This stuff all stems from James Bacque's "Other Losses"--now
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Want a war criminal? Try Henry Kissinger.
--John Baglow
The link is to an article by Steven Ambrose, much of whose life
was based on worship of and writing about Eisenhower, and who was
a director emeritus of the Eisenhower museum. I came across this
a couple of years back, and can't remember all teh back and forth
arguments, but I remember Peter Worthington mentioning Ambrose,
and then debunking what he had to write. Worthington basically
agreed with Bacque.
John Baglow
2003-12-31 22:44:39 UTC
Permalink
Paul Moore, posting as "Ralph Kunkle," writes:


[Baglow]
Post by Ralph Kunkle
Post by John Baglow
Used to be that someone who is an expert in a field--say,
history--would be given more credence than a newspaper
columnist.
Instead, the expert's very expertise is held against him.
You know very well that where academic reputations are at stake
academics will do almost anything to refute an opinon or article
which goes against everything they've been writing for decades.
The point being he had something to protect, while Worthington
had absolutely no axe to grind.
So what did this academic do, then, Paul? Why not refute him on his
facts? Let's start with Bacque's erors in arithmetic. I look forward
to your rebuttal.

In the meantime, ponder this: not only do you dismiss Ambrose because
he is an expert on the subject, but now, it seems, because he actually
published a rebuttal to Bacque--proof positive, to you, that he must
have a hidden agenda. Of such nonsense are closed delusional systems
made. No wonder CODOH and the Institute for Historical Review praise
this guy, when they're not denying the Holocaust.

[Holocaust? Ja, ja, there was a Holocaust. But the Jews did it to the
Germans, not the other way round. Eisenhower had Jewish blood you
know.]

Years ago there was a character on all newsgroups named Serdar Argic,
who insisted that the Armenians were the ones who practised genocide
against the Turks. A similar mushroom is sprouting here.
Ralph Kunkle
2003-12-31 23:58:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
You know very well that where academic reputations are at
stake
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
academics will do almost anything to refute an opinon or
article
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
which goes against everything they've been writing for
decades.
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
The point being he had something to protect, while Worthington
had absolutely no axe to grind.
So what did this academic do, then, Paul? Why not refute him on his
facts? Let's start with Bacque's erors in arithmetic. I look
forward
Post by John Baglow
to your rebuttal.
Bacque already replied to Ambrose' "book review". As I posted
earlier. You may reply to that if you choose.

http://hnn.us/articles/1266.html
Post by John Baglow
In the meantime, ponder this: not only do you dismiss Ambrose
because
Post by John Baglow
he is an expert on the subject, but now, it seems, because he
actually
Post by John Baglow
published a rebuttal to Bacque--proof positive, to you, that he must
have a hidden agenda.
Now you're being delusional. I did not dismiss Ambrose. I pointed
out that I had read Worthington on this issue, and that
Worthington, who did his own research, dismissed Ambrose. I then
pointed out that Ambrose, unlike Worthington, had an axe to
grind, a reputation and hero to protect. I notice you made no
reply to this.
Post by John Baglow
[Holocaust? Ja, ja, there was a Holocaust. But the Jews did it
to the
Post by John Baglow
Germans, not the other way round. Eisenhower had Jewish blood
you
Post by John Baglow
know.]
I have no interest on whether Eisenhower had or did not have any
Jewish blood. It's irrelevent to the discussion, which is why I'm
mainly ignoring the Nazis on this issue.
John Baglow
2004-01-01 02:07:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
You know very well that where academic reputations are at
stake
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
academics will do almost anything to refute an opinon or
article
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
which goes against everything they've been writing for
decades.
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
The point being he had something to protect, while Worthington
had absolutely no axe to grind.
So what did this academic do, then, Paul? Why not refute him on
his
Post by John Baglow
facts? Let's start with Bacque's erors in arithmetic. I look
forward
Post by John Baglow
to your rebuttal.
Bacque already replied to Ambrose' "book review". As I posted
earlier. You may reply to that if you choose.
http://hnn.us/articles/1266.html
Not good enough, for several reasons. 1) Ambrose's rebuttal was not a
"book review." 2) Bacque is refuted on the exact-same URL you posted.
3) You haven't dealt with a single fact that Ambrose brought forward:
like your comrade-in-arms Kurt Knoll, you've just indilged in on-going
character assassination. No substitute for scholarship, I'm afriad.
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by John Baglow
In the meantime, ponder this: not only do you dismiss Ambrose
because
Post by John Baglow
he is an expert on the subject, but now, it seems, because he
actually
Post by John Baglow
published a rebuttal to Bacque--proof positive, to you, that he
must
Post by John Baglow
have a hidden agenda.
Now you're being delusional. I did not dismiss Ambrose. I pointed
out that I had read Worthington on this issue, and that
Worthington, who did his own research, dismissed Ambrose. I then
pointed out that Ambrose, unlike Worthington, had an axe to
grind, a reputation and hero to protect. I notice you made no
reply to this.
Yes, in fact I did. Ambrose is an expert who posted a reply to Bacque.
You dismissed Ambrose for being an expert and for replying to Bacque.
Both indicated, according to you, a not-so-hidden agenda. On the other
hand, Worthington can be believed on anything because he "has no axe
to grind." You are incapable of seeing the ludicrous errors in logic
that accompany this line of "argument."

Worthington's article on Bacque is quoted from by every neo-nazi
outfit on the net, but not one of those assiduous cretins find him
"refuting Ambrose." He did nothing of the kind. He simply endorsed
Bacque.
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by John Baglow
[Holocaust? Ja, ja, there was a Holocaust. But the Jews did it
to the
Post by John Baglow
Germans, not the other way round. Eisenhower had Jewish blood
you
Post by John Baglow
know.]
I have no interest on whether Eisenhower had or did not have any
Jewish blood. It's irrelevent to the discussion, which is why I'm
mainly ignoring the Nazis on this issue.
That makes you a fairly lonely figure on your side of the discussion.
That's not argument, of course--merely sympathy.

--John Baglow
Kurt Knoll
2004-01-01 05:38:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Baglow
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
You know very well that where academic reputations are at
stake
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
academics will do almost anything to refute an opinon or
article
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
which goes against everything they've been writing for
decades.
Post by John Baglow
Post by Ralph Kunkle
The point being he had something to protect, while Worthington
had absolutely no axe to grind.
So what did this academic do, then, Paul? Why not refute him on
his
Post by John Baglow
facts? Let's start with Bacque's erors in arithmetic. I look
forward
Post by John Baglow
to your rebuttal.
Bacque already replied to Ambrose' "book review". As I posted
earlier. You may reply to that if you choose.
http://hnn.us/articles/1266.html
Not good enough, for several reasons. 1) Ambrose's rebuttal was not a
"book review." 2) Bacque is refuted on the exact-same URL you posted.
like your comrade-in-arms Kurt Knoll, you've just indilged in on-going
character assassination. No substitute for scholarship, I'm afriad.
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by John Baglow
In the meantime, ponder this: not only do you dismiss Ambrose
because
Post by John Baglow
he is an expert on the subject, but now, it seems, because he
actually
Post by John Baglow
published a rebuttal to Bacque--proof positive, to you, that he
must
Post by John Baglow
have a hidden agenda.
Now you're being delusional. I did not dismiss Ambrose. I pointed
out that I had read Worthington on this issue, and that
Worthington, who did his own research, dismissed Ambrose. I then
pointed out that Ambrose, unlike Worthington, had an axe to
grind, a reputation and hero to protect. I notice you made no
reply to this.
Yes, in fact I did. Ambrose is an expert who posted a reply to Bacque.
You dismissed Ambrose for being an expert and for replying to Bacque.
Both indicated, according to you, a not-so-hidden agenda. On the other
hand, Worthington can be believed on anything because he "has no axe
to grind." You are incapable of seeing the ludicrous errors in logic
that accompany this line of "argument."
Worthington's article on Bacque is quoted from by every neo-nazi
outfit on the net, but not one of those assiduous cretins find him
"refuting Ambrose." He did nothing of the kind. He simply endorsed
Bacque.
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by John Baglow
[Holocaust? Ja, ja, there was a Holocaust. But the Jews did it
to the
Post by John Baglow
Germans, not the other way round. Eisenhower had Jewish blood
you
Post by John Baglow
know.]
I have no interest on whether Eisenhower had or did not have any
Jewish blood. It's irrelevent to the discussion, which is why I'm
mainly ignoring the Nazis on this issue.
That makes you a fairly lonely figure on your side of the discussion.
That's not argument, of course--merely sympathy.
--John Baglow
And what is your agenda ?. Isn't the Jewish agenda always the same it
has been for the lat 2000 years ?. What are you trying to prove the
facts are there. I have experienced what James Basque is writing about
and so did millions of other Germans. The Mainstay of the Jewish
Politics has always been the same, and this is to discredit all Germans
at any cost. I do not have any other problems with you other than I do
not trust you even if you were to Pay me for it. You people are just too
much tainted for me to be trusted. Your Slimy approach is always the
same.

Kurt Knoll.
=
Kurt Knoll
2004-01-01 01:27:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Baglow
[Baglow]
Post by Ralph Kunkle
Post by John Baglow
Used to be that someone who is an expert in a field--say,
history--would be given more credence than a newspaper
columnist.
Instead, the expert's very expertise is held against him.
You know very well that where academic reputations are at stake
academics will do almost anything to refute an opinon or article
which goes against everything they've been writing for decades.
The point being he had something to protect, while Worthington
had absolutely no axe to grind.
So what did this academic do, then, Paul? Why not refute him on his
facts? Let's start with Bacque's erors in arithmetic. I look forward
to your rebuttal.
In the meantime, ponder this: not only do you dismiss Ambrose because
he is an expert on the subject, but now, it seems, because he actually
published a rebuttal to Bacque--proof positive, to you, that he must
have a hidden agenda. Of such nonsense are closed delusional systems
made. No wonder CODOH and the Institute for Historical Review praise
this guy, when they're not denying the Holocaust.
[Holocaust? Ja, ja, there was a Holocaust. But the Jews did it to the
Germans, not the other way round. Eisenhower had Jewish blood you
know.]
Years ago there was a character on all newsgroups named Serdar Argic,
who insisted that the Armenians were the ones who practised genocide
against the Turks. A similar mushroom is sprouting here.
For you info I know personally German Prisoners that where in the Rein
Main Death camps. You are discrediting all the people that have
experienced the end of world war II and under Allied Control. The Jewish
intentions to discredited James Basque is simply because you people
don't want the rest of the word to know that there is more that one side
of the Stories that your Holohoax. I have been exposed to your Spin
Doctoring Fabrications and inbreed Falsehood and there will never be a
time when you master Liars can Convince me otherwise. The more you stir
up this shit the more it stink. Now co can call me a Nazi if you like
but it will not bother me coming from a Master Jew all my life I have
only known you people for your Falshood.

Kurt Knoll.
h***@nospam.com
2004-01-01 01:47:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Knoll
Post by John Baglow
[Baglow]
Post by Ralph Kunkle
Post by John Baglow
Used to be that someone who is an expert in a field--say,
history--would be given more credence than a newspaper
columnist.
Instead, the expert's very expertise is held against him.
You know very well that where academic reputations are at stake
academics will do almost anything to refute an opinon or article
which goes against everything they've been writing for decades.
The point being he had something to protect, while Worthington
had absolutely no axe to grind.
So what did this academic do, then, Paul? Why not refute him on his
facts? Let's start with Bacque's erors in arithmetic. I look forward
to your rebuttal.
In the meantime, ponder this: not only do you dismiss Ambrose because
he is an expert on the subject, but now, it seems, because he actually
published a rebuttal to Bacque--proof positive, to you, that he must
have a hidden agenda. Of such nonsense are closed delusional systems
made. No wonder CODOH and the Institute for Historical Review praise
this guy, when they're not denying the Holocaust.
[Holocaust? Ja, ja, there was a Holocaust. But the Jews did it to the
Germans, not the other way round. Eisenhower had Jewish blood you
know.]
Years ago there was a character on all newsgroups named Serdar Argic,
who insisted that the Armenians were the ones who practised genocide
against the Turks. A similar mushroom is sprouting here.
For you info I know personally German Prisoners that where in the Rein
Main Death camps. You are discrediting all the people that have
experienced the end of world war II and under Allied Control. The Jewish
intentions to discredited James Basque is simply because you people
don't want the rest of the word to know that there is more that one side
of the Stories that your Holohoax. I have been exposed to your Spin
Doctoring Fabrications and inbreed Falsehood and there will never be a
time when you master Liars can Convince me otherwise. The more you stir
up this shit the more it stink. Now co can call me a Nazi if you like
but it will not bother me coming from a Master Jew all my life I have
only known you people for your Falshood.
Kurt Knoll.
Kurt is a lovely man, he believes that the Germans were very badly
treated after the war and that we had no right to be mean to them. After
all the Germans were just trying to give Europe and Africa a taste of
their wonderful lifestyle. Kurt also believes there was no holocaust
(unless one is willing to only consider the deaths of German POWs). Kurt
believes that it all stems from a massive Jewish conspiracy,
fabrications and that anyone that attempts to say otherwise is a "Master
Jew".

Is that close Kurt?
Werner Knoll
2004-01-01 03:38:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Kurt Knoll
Post by John Baglow
[Baglow]
[...]
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Kurt Knoll
For you info I know personally German Prisoners that where in the Rein
Main Death camps. You are discrediting all the people that have
experienced the end of world war II and under Allied Control. The Jewish
intentions to discredited James Basque is simply because you people
don't want the rest of the word to know that there is more that one side
of the Stories that your Holohoax. I have been exposed to your Spin
Doctoring Fabrications and inbreed Falsehood and there will never be a
time when you master Liars can Convince me otherwise. The more you stir
up this shit the more it stink. Now co can call me a Nazi if you like
but it will not bother me coming from a Master Jew all my life I have
only known you people for your Falshood.
Kurt Knoll.
Kurt is a lovely man, he believes that the Germans were very badly
treated after the war and that we had no right to be mean to them. After
all the Germans were just trying to give Europe and Africa a taste of
their wonderful lifestyle. Kurt also believes there was no holocaust
(unless one is willing to only consider the deaths of German POWs). Kurt
believes that it all stems from a massive Jewish conspiracy,
fabrications and that anyone that attempts to say otherwise is a "Master
Jew".
Is that close Kurt?
Not close!

Kurt and I know that Jews were killed for no other reason than being
Jewish.

As for the Americans?

Americans are throwing stones, pretending to be no sinner!

I was once called a Nazi for not believing in Jewish soap.

Werner Knoll
"Anti - Semitism can be spread by sneezing".
That what the producer of Schindlers List said Tuesday. May 25, 1999 on
CNN.
When classmates sneezed in front of him, it sounded like JewishzzzzZZZZ
h***@nospam.com
2004-01-01 04:15:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Kurt Knoll
Post by John Baglow
[Baglow]
[...]
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Kurt Knoll
For you info I know personally German Prisoners that where in the Rein
Main Death camps. You are discrediting all the people that have
experienced the end of world war II and under Allied Control. The
Jewish
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Kurt Knoll
intentions to discredited James Basque is simply because you people
don't want the rest of the word to know that there is more that one
side
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Kurt Knoll
of the Stories that your Holohoax. I have been exposed to your Spin
Doctoring Fabrications and inbreed Falsehood and there will never be a
time when you master Liars can Convince me otherwise. The more you
stir
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Kurt Knoll
up this shit the more it stink. Now co can call me a Nazi if you like
but it will not bother me coming from a Master Jew all my life I have
only known you people for your Falshood.
Kurt Knoll.
Kurt is a lovely man, he believes that the Germans were very badly
treated after the war and that we had no right to be mean to them. After
all the Germans were just trying to give Europe and Africa a taste of
their wonderful lifestyle. Kurt also believes there was no holocaust
(unless one is willing to only consider the deaths of German POWs). Kurt
believes that it all stems from a massive Jewish conspiracy,
fabrications and that anyone that attempts to say otherwise is a "Master
Jew".
Is that close Kurt?
Not close!
Kurt and I know that Jews were killed for no other reason than being
Jewish.
So when you used the term "Holohoax" in your previous post, you were
just kidding?
Post by A***@somewhere.com
As for the Americans?
Americans are throwing stones, pretending to be no sinner!
I was once called a Nazi for not believing in Jewish soap.
Actually it seems that there are many of your posts that talk of your
lack of belief in the Holocaust. Could you explain why a search of "Kurt
Knoll" in dejanews would reveal so many titles like:
Re: Drooling moron Kurt Knoll makes a very public jackass of ...
Re: Kurt Knoll: Watch Him Drool!
Re: Kurt Knoll still lying! Everybody point and laugh!
Re: Kurt Knoll admits defeat... there is no law
Re: Kurt Knoll: Still Drooling!
Re: Why did Kurt Knoll Lie?
Re: When will Kurt Knoll Stop Lying? Date ... Kurt Knoll. The ...
Re: Kurt Knoll's Roaring Silence
Re: American Jewry- from another anti-American Kurt Knoll
Re: Kurt Knoll: The Amazing Brainless Man!
Re: Kurt Knoll aka Jews, Their Communism, Their Bigotry Toward ...
Is Kurt Knoll a brain dead cretin?
Kurt Knoll, the confused

107,000 articles all following the same lines.

What do you think that implies about the views of you and your brother?
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Werner Knoll
"Anti - Semitism can be spread by sneezing".
That what the producer of Schindlers List said Tuesday. May 25, 1999 on
CNN.
When classmates sneezed in front of him, it sounded like JewishzzzzZZZZ
Werner Knoll
2004-01-01 18:38:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Werner Knoll
Post by h***@nospam.com
Kurt is a lovely man, he believes that the Germans were very badly
treated after the war and that we had no right to be mean to them. After
all the Germans were just trying to give Europe and Africa a taste of
their wonderful lifestyle. Kurt also believes there was no holocaust
(unless one is willing to only consider the deaths of German POWs). Kurt
believes that it all stems from a massive Jewish conspiracy,
fabrications and that anyone that attempts to say otherwise is a "Master
Jew".
Is that close Kurt?
Not close!
Kurt and I know that Jews were killed for no other reason than being
Jewish.
So when you used the term "Holohoax" in your previous post, you were
just kidding?
Where did I use the word "Holohoax"
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Werner Knoll
As for the Americans?
Americans are throwing stones, pretending to be no sinner!
I was once called a Nazi for not believing in Jewish soap.
Actually it seems that there are many of your posts that talk of your
lack of belief in the Holocaust. Could you explain why a search of "Kurt
Re: Drooling moron Kurt Knoll makes a very public jackass of ...
Re: Kurt Knoll: Watch Him Drool!
Re: Kurt Knoll still lying! Everybody point and laugh!
Re: Kurt Knoll admits defeat... there is no law
Re: Kurt Knoll: Still Drooling!
Re: Why did Kurt Knoll Lie?
Re: When will Kurt Knoll Stop Lying? Date ... Kurt Knoll. The ...
Re: Kurt Knoll's Roaring Silence
Re: American Jewry- from another anti-American Kurt Knoll
Re: Kurt Knoll: The Amazing Brainless Man!
Re: Kurt Knoll aka Jews, Their Communism, Their Bigotry Toward ...
Is Kurt Knoll a brain dead cretin?
Kurt Knoll, the confused
Quotes by people who have nothing to say, that is why the said it here!
Post by h***@nospam.com
107,000 articles all following the same lines.
What do you think that implies about the views of you and your brother?
Post by Werner Knoll
Werner Knoll
"Anti - Semitism can be spread by sneezing".
That what the producer of Schindlers List said Tuesday. May 25, 1999 on
CNN.
When classmates sneezed in front of him, it sounded like
JewishzzzzZZZZ

A Binyamin Shilon now living in Israel said in an article in the Vancouver
Province on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 :

"Shilon immigrated in 1957 to Tivon, near Haifa, to escape a revival of
anti - Semitism in Poland."

How come? There is a saying: As you sow, so shall you reap." Could it be
that you are your own master of what is coming to you?

Werner Knoll
h***@nospam.com
2004-01-01 19:06:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Werner Knoll
Post by h***@nospam.com
Kurt is a lovely man, he believes that the Germans were very badly
treated after the war and that we had no right to be mean to them.
After
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Werner Knoll
Post by h***@nospam.com
all the Germans were just trying to give Europe and Africa a taste of
their wonderful lifestyle. Kurt also believes there was no holocaust
(unless one is willing to only consider the deaths of German POWs).
Kurt
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Werner Knoll
Post by h***@nospam.com
believes that it all stems from a massive Jewish conspiracy,
fabrications and that anyone that attempts to say otherwise is a
"Master
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Werner Knoll
Post by h***@nospam.com
Jew".
Is that close Kurt?
Not close!
Kurt and I know that Jews were killed for no other reason than being
Jewish.
So when you used the term "Holohoax" in your previous post, you were
just kidding?
Where did I use the word "Holohoax"
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Werner Knoll
As for the Americans?
Americans are throwing stones, pretending to be no sinner!
I was once called a Nazi for not believing in Jewish soap.
Actually it seems that there are many of your posts that talk of your
lack of belief in the Holocaust. Could you explain why a search of "Kurt
Re: Drooling moron Kurt Knoll makes a very public jackass of ...
Re: Kurt Knoll: Watch Him Drool!
Re: Kurt Knoll still lying! Everybody point and laugh!
Re: Kurt Knoll admits defeat... there is no law
Re: Kurt Knoll: Still Drooling!
Re: Why did Kurt Knoll Lie?
Re: When will Kurt Knoll Stop Lying? Date ... Kurt Knoll. The ...
Re: Kurt Knoll's Roaring Silence
Re: American Jewry- from another anti-American Kurt Knoll
Re: Kurt Knoll: The Amazing Brainless Man!
Re: Kurt Knoll aka Jews, Their Communism, Their Bigotry Toward ...
Is Kurt Knoll a brain dead cretin?
Kurt Knoll, the confused
Quotes by people who have nothing to say, that is why the said it here!
Post by h***@nospam.com
107,000 articles all following the same lines.
What do you think that implies about the views of you and your brother?
Post by Werner Knoll
Werner Knoll
"Anti - Semitism can be spread by sneezing".
That what the producer of Schindlers List said Tuesday. May 25, 1999
on
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Werner Knoll
CNN.
When classmates sneezed in front of him, it sounded like
JewishzzzzZZZZ
A Binyamin Shilon now living in Israel said in an article in the Vancouver
"Shilon immigrated in 1957 to Tivon, near Haifa, to escape a revival of
anti - Semitism in Poland."
How come? There is a saying: As you sow, so shall you reap." Could it be
that you are your own master of what is coming to you?
Werner Knoll
My guess is that the ignorance levels of Poland had not improved under
Soviet occupation, and so the same old scape goats were trotted out by
the weak of mind. "As you sow you shall reap", so now you are saying
that the 6million people you bastards slaughtered deserved it?
Werner Knoll
2004-01-01 22:57:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Werner Knoll
Post by h***@nospam.com
Actually it seems that there are many of your posts that talk of your
lack of belief in the Holocaust. Could you explain why a search of "Kurt
Re: Drooling moron Kurt Knoll makes a very public jackass of ...
Re: Kurt Knoll: Watch Him Drool!
Re: Kurt Knoll still lying! Everybody point and laugh!
Re: Kurt Knoll admits defeat... there is no law
Re: Kurt Knoll: Still Drooling!
Re: Why did Kurt Knoll Lie?
Re: When will Kurt Knoll Stop Lying? Date ... Kurt Knoll. The ...
Re: Kurt Knoll's Roaring Silence
Re: American Jewry- from another anti-American Kurt Knoll
Re: Kurt Knoll: The Amazing Brainless Man!
Re: Kurt Knoll aka Jews, Their Communism, Their Bigotry Toward ...
Is Kurt Knoll a brain dead cretin?
Kurt Knoll, the confused
[...]
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Werner Knoll
A Binyamin Shilon now living in Israel said in an article in the Vancouver
"Shilon immigrated in 1957 to Tivon, near Haifa, to escape a revival of
anti - Semitism in Poland."
How come? There is a saying: As you sow, so shall you reap." Could it be
that you are your own master of what is coming to you?
Werner Knoll
My guess is that the ignorance levels of Poland had not improved under
Soviet occupation, and so the same old scape goats were trotted out by
the weak of mind. "As you sow you shall reap", so now you are saying
that the 6million people you bastards slaughtered deserved it?
In the Vancouver Province on Monday, May 28, 2001 is a report about
Jedwabne in Poland where 1,600 Jews were massacred by Pole's

For years it was believed the Germans did it. The question you should have
to ask yourself why Jews were hated in other places too? How come?

In one German speaking news paper it say's "Scharon wirft Europäern
kollektiven Antisemitism vor "Wer den jüdischen Staat Israel kritisiert
ist ein Antisemit."

Source: Deutsch Zeitung 10. Dezember 2003

Meaning you are anti - Semitic when you criticize Israel.

When you create hate against Germans, Swiss, Poles and others, you have
too expect that people fight back!

Werner Knoll
Gord Webster
2004-01-01 09:13:33 UTC
Permalink
<***@nospam.com> wrote in message news:3ff37c49$0$18751$***@news.optusnet.com.au...


<snipped>
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Kurt Knoll
For you info I know personally German Prisoners that where in the Rein
Main Death camps. You are discrediting all the people that have
experienced the end of world war II and under Allied Control. The Jewish
intentions to discredited James Basque is simply because you people
don't want the rest of the word to know that there is more that one side
of the Stories that your Holohoax. I have been exposed to your Spin
Doctoring Fabrications and inbreed Falsehood and there will never be a
time when you master Liars can Convince me otherwise. The more you stir
up this shit the more it stink. Now co can call me a Nazi if you like
but it will not bother me coming from a Master Jew all my life I have
only known you people for your Falshood.
Kurt Knoll.
Kurt is a lovely man, he believes that the Germans were very badly
treated after the war and that we had no right to be mean to them. After
all the Germans were just trying to give Europe and Africa a taste of
their wonderful lifestyle. Kurt also believes there was no holocaust
(unless one is willing to only consider the deaths of German POWs). Kurt
believes that it all stems from a massive Jewish conspiracy,
fabrications and that anyone that attempts to say otherwise is a "Master
Jew".
Is that close Kurt?
On a personal level, we know that the discussion was about how Germans were
treated after the defeat of Germany.

Anyone who blows his stack and starts ranting about a Jewish Conspiracy is
bending the facts from what was being discussed and risking the arguments
credibility because of conjecture. It leaves the facts behind and helps to
discredit the good, first hand experiences we've read here.

It would be beneficial if this discussion stuck to the facts and didn't go
off on a tangent which could rip it to shreds and turn it into crap.

It's up to you. I've said my part.
h***@nospam.com
2004-01-01 09:45:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gord Webster
<snipped>
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Kurt Knoll
For you info I know personally German Prisoners that where in the Rein
Main Death camps. You are discrediting all the people that have
experienced the end of world war II and under Allied Control. The Jewish
intentions to discredited James Basque is simply because you people
don't want the rest of the word to know that there is more that one side
of the Stories that your Holohoax. I have been exposed to your Spin
Doctoring Fabrications and inbreed Falsehood and there will never be a
time when you master Liars can Convince me otherwise. The more you stir
up this shit the more it stink. Now co can call me a Nazi if you like
but it will not bother me coming from a Master Jew all my life I have
only known you people for your Falshood.
Kurt Knoll.
Kurt is a lovely man, he believes that the Germans were very badly
treated after the war and that we had no right to be mean to them. After
all the Germans were just trying to give Europe and Africa a taste of
their wonderful lifestyle. Kurt also believes there was no holocaust
(unless one is willing to only consider the deaths of German POWs). Kurt
believes that it all stems from a massive Jewish conspiracy,
fabrications and that anyone that attempts to say otherwise is a "Master
Jew".
Is that close Kurt?
On a personal level, we know that the discussion was about how Germans were
treated after the defeat of Germany.
Anyone who blows his stack and starts ranting about a Jewish Conspiracy is
bending the facts from what was being discussed and risking the arguments
credibility because of conjecture. It leaves the facts behind and helps to
discredit the good, first hand experiences we've read here.
It would be beneficial if this discussion stuck to the facts and didn't go
off on a tangent which could rip it to shreds and turn it into crap.
It's up to you. I've said my part.
Perhaps however, a quick look at this guy's posting history might make
one wonder as to the veracity of his claims. So far he's managed two
"first hand" experiences - the first being the buring of meat by allied
troops, the second being the the denial of access to prisoners of war
for "taking water to them". The first would appear on the face of it to
be very poor behavior by the troops concerned - though I'd like to hear
the other side, the second sounds like normal prisoner access
restrictions - I'd expect the Germans weren't exactly welcoming to
outside visits when they administered camps, and I certainly know the
Japanese weren't.
Kurt probably left out some valuable info in his first account, like
they lived in the town next door to a death camp and thought they'd tuck
in to the food stores when these nasty Allied troops came in after
having buried the rancid corpses and caring for the emaciated surviving
occupants. And they weren't amused.
Needless to say, if this was his worst experience under occupation then
he got off pretty lightly, the vast majority of occupied people got a
lot rougher treatment than that. It certainly appears from his attitude
towards Jews that no lessons were learnt by him during his WW2 experiences.

The rest of his posts talk about knowing people who saw this and that-
this isn't first hand knowledge and it certainly will be coloured by his
underlying conspiracy theory character.
Ceck out the history of his posts and then see whether you want to
bother with anything he writes here.
John Baglow
2004-01-01 16:28:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gord Webster
My humble view is that the world gave us Leni Riefenstahl, who made
movies
Post by Gord Webster
up until her death (of old age) not long ago.
Mel Gibson got heat about his Jesus story, Martin Scorsese did "Last
Temptation of Christ", and got trouble,
What is your point, Gord? That people get criticized for making
movies? What does this have to do with the price of oranges?
Post by Gord Webster
Jodii Foster did the story of Leni Riefenstahl and it's still having
problems with (excuse me) the Hollywood that we know and love. It's
not
Post by Gord Webster
been released. Give her due credit for fighting bias to tell the
story of a
Post by Gord Webster
legend.
Riefenstahl died an unreconstructed Nazi. That is not a comment upon
the technical brilliance of her work, only upon the ideology that
underlies it.
Post by Gord Webster
Riefenstah wasn't a NAZI, she was sure a friend of Hitler, but when
she
Post by Gord Webster
died, even Jewish cultural icons and those who weren't acknowledged
her fine
Post by Gord Webster
and innovative ways.
Of course she was a Nazi. Pretending that art lives in a vaccum is the
oldest trick in the book. Art reflects life. Had she not been a Nazi
visionary, she would never have become the figure she was under the
Third Reich.
Post by Gord Webster
Some say "Triumph des Willens" was one of the most brilliant movies
of its
Post by Gord Webster
time.
Here's the link on IMDB. http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0025913/
And indeed it was a technically brilliant film, not to mention scary
as hell. No one is here claiming that evil people are incapable of
creativity or intelligence.
Post by Gord Webster
Wrong place, wrong time. I guess. It wasn't about politics.
Oh yes it was.


--John Baglow
Kurt Knoll
2004-01-01 18:00:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gord Webster
Post by Gord Webster
My humble view is that the world gave us Leni Riefenstahl, who made
movies
Post by Gord Webster
up until her death (of old age) not long ago.
Mel Gibson got heat about his Jesus story, Martin Scorsese did "Last
Temptation of Christ", and got trouble,
What is your point, Gord? That people get criticized for making
movies? What does this have to do with the price of oranges?
Post by Gord Webster
Jodii Foster did the story of Leni Riefenstahl and it's still having
problems with (excuse me) the Hollywood that we know and love. It's
not
Post by Gord Webster
been released. Give her due credit for fighting bias to tell the
story of a
Post by Gord Webster
legend.
Riefenstahl died an unreconstructed Nazi. That is not a comment upon
the technical brilliance of her work, only upon the ideology that
underlies it.
Post by Gord Webster
Riefenstah wasn't a NAZI, she was sure a friend of Hitler, but when
she
Post by Gord Webster
died, even Jewish cultural icons and those who weren't acknowledged
her fine
Post by Gord Webster
and innovative ways.
Of course she was a Nazi. Pretending that art lives in a vaccum is the
oldest trick in the book. Art reflects life. Had she not been a Nazi
visionary, she would never have become the figure she was under the
Third Reich.
Post by Gord Webster
Some say "Triumph des Willens" was one of the most brilliant movies
of its
Post by Gord Webster
time.
Here's the link on IMDB. http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0025913/
And indeed it was a technically brilliant film, not to mention scary
as hell. No one is here claiming that evil people are incapable of
creativity or intelligence.
Post by Gord Webster
Wrong place, wrong time. I guess. It wasn't about politics.
Oh yes it was.
--John Baglow
You are a typical American Fuckhead. Ellie Riefenstal was a Filmmaker
just as you have American Filmakers. If Riefestahl did have a Political
Agenta so have Americans on a much larger scale. You look more like a
typical American fanatic to me. Have a good look how much of a missery
has Createt since about the 1920 and learn frm it.

Kurt Knoll.
=
Iskandar Baharuddin
2004-01-01 18:39:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Knoll
Post by Gord Webster
Post by Gord Webster
My humble view is that the world gave us Leni Riefenstahl, who made
movies
Post by Gord Webster
up until her death (of old age) not long ago.
Mel Gibson got heat about his Jesus story, Martin Scorsese did "Last
Temptation of Christ", and got trouble,
What is your point, Gord? That people get criticized for making
movies? What does this have to do with the price of oranges?
Post by Gord Webster
Jodii Foster did the story of Leni Riefenstahl and it's still having
problems with (excuse me) the Hollywood that we know and love. It's
not
Post by Gord Webster
been released. Give her due credit for fighting bias to tell the
story of a
Post by Gord Webster
legend.
Riefenstahl died an unreconstructed Nazi. That is not a comment upon
the technical brilliance of her work, only upon the ideology that
underlies it.
Post by Gord Webster
Riefenstah wasn't a NAZI, she was sure a friend of Hitler, but when
she
Post by Gord Webster
died, even Jewish cultural icons and those who weren't acknowledged
her fine
Post by Gord Webster
and innovative ways.
Of course she was a Nazi. Pretending that art lives in a vaccum is the
oldest trick in the book. Art reflects life. Had she not been a Nazi
visionary, she would never have become the figure she was under the
Third Reich.
Post by Gord Webster
Some say "Triumph des Willens" was one of the most brilliant movies
of its
Post by Gord Webster
time.
Here's the link on IMDB. http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0025913/
And indeed it was a technically brilliant film, not to mention scary
as hell. No one is here claiming that evil people are incapable of
creativity or intelligence.
Post by Gord Webster
Wrong place, wrong time. I guess. It wasn't about politics.
Oh yes it was.
--John Baglow
You are a typical American Fuckhead. Ellie Riefenstal was a Filmmaker
just as you have American Filmakers. If Riefestahl did have a Political
Agenta so have Americans on a much larger scale. You look more like a
typical American fanatic to me. Have a good look how much of a missery
has Createt since about the 1920 and learn frm it.
Kurt Knoll.
Is Kurt another manfestation of Mosley's MPD?

Izzy
Eric®
2004-01-01 20:18:09 UTC
Permalink
Kurt Knoll wrote...
Post by Kurt Knoll
You are a typical American Fuckhead. Ellie Riefenstal was a Filmmaker
just as you have American Filmakers. If Riefestahl did have a Political
Agenta so have Americans on a much larger scale. You look more like a
typical American fanatic to me. Have a good look how much of a missery
has Createt since about the 1920 and learn frm it.
Kurt Knoll.
Is it true that you have a little moustache you tape onto your face
before coming onto usenet?

Why don't you wake up and realize the misery endured by the German
people because of your ridiculous pet Fuhrer, you dumb fuck?
______________________________________________________________

***@lycos.com (Eric)

My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally
healthy child is: Keep him or her as far away from a church
as you can. - Frank Zappa
Kurt Knoll
2004-01-01 22:54:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric®
Kurt Knoll wrote...
Post by Kurt Knoll
You are a typical American Fuckhead. Ellie Riefenstal was a
Filmmaker
Post by Eric®
Post by Kurt Knoll
just as you have American Filmakers. If Riefestahl did have a Political
Agenta so have Americans on a much larger scale. You look more like a
typical American fanatic to me. Have a good look how much of a missery
has Createt since about the 1920 and learn frm it.
Kurt Knoll.
Is it true that you have a little moustache you tape onto your face
before coming onto usenet?
Why don't you wake up and realize the misery endured by the German
people because of your ridiculous pet Fuhrer, you dumb fuck?
______________________________________________________________
My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally
healthy child is: Keep him or her as far away from a church
as you can. - Frank Zappa
You forgot to say Hallelujah at the end.

Kurt Knoll.
=
Kurt Knoll
2004-01-01 02:47:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Kurt Knoll
Post by John Baglow
[Baglow]
Post by Ralph Kunkle
Post by John Baglow
Used to be that someone who is an expert in a field--say,
history--would be given more credence than a newspaper
columnist.
Instead, the expert's very expertise is held against him.
You know very well that where academic reputations are at stake
academics will do almost anything to refute an opinon or article
which goes against everything they've been writing for decades.
The point being he had something to protect, while Worthington
had absolutely no axe to grind.
So what did this academic do, then, Paul? Why not refute him on his
facts? Let's start with Bacque's erors in arithmetic. I look forward
to your rebuttal.
In the meantime, ponder this: not only do you dismiss Ambrose because
he is an expert on the subject, but now, it seems, because he actually
published a rebuttal to Bacque--proof positive, to you, that he must
have a hidden agenda. Of such nonsense are closed delusional systems
made. No wonder CODOH and the Institute for Historical Review praise
this guy, when they're not denying the Holocaust.
[Holocaust? Ja, ja, there was a Holocaust. But the Jews did it to the
Germans, not the other way round. Eisenhower had Jewish blood you
know.]
Years ago there was a character on all newsgroups named Serdar Argic,
who insisted that the Armenians were the ones who practised genocide
against the Turks. A similar mushroom is sprouting here.
For you info I know personally German Prisoners that where in the Rein
Main Death camps. You are discrediting all the people that have
experienced the end of world war II and under Allied Control. The Jewish
intentions to discredited James Basque is simply because you people
don't want the rest of the word to know that there is more that one side
of the Stories that your Holohoax. I have been exposed to your Spin
Doctoring Fabrications and inbreed Falsehood and there will never be a
time when you master Liars can Convince me otherwise. The more you stir
up this shit the more it stink. Now co can call me a Nazi if you like
but it will not bother me coming from a Master Jew all my life I have
only known you people for your Falshood.
Kurt Knoll.
Kurt is a lovely man, he believes that the Germans were very badly
treated after the war and that we had no right to be mean to them. After
all the Germans were just trying to give Europe and Africa a taste of
their wonderful lifestyle. Kurt also believes there was no holocaust
(unless one is willing to only consider the deaths of German POWs). Kurt
believes that it all stems from a massive Jewish conspiracy,
fabrications and that anyone that attempts to say otherwise is a "Master
Jew".
Is that close Kurt?
Not just the Germans but also the rest of the world has the right to
know what kind of game is here Played. It is not about if the Germans
were badly treated it is about that all of us have the right to ask
questions. You people were no Angels but you people spent a hell of a
long time Clorifying your self while at the same time you demonise all
others. Do some searching of your self maybe it will come to you. But
only if you know how to use logic right now you are only impressed with
your self and blind. Also remember the Survivors of the Rein Main Camp
were never allowed to Publish their story and it is a shame that only
after more than 50 years or more and because of the Internet this facts
are coming to light.

Kurt Knoll.
=
Diabolik
2004-01-01 12:56:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Kurt Knoll
Post by John Baglow
[Baglow]
Post by Ralph Kunkle
Post by John Baglow
Used to be that someone who is an expert in a field--say,
history--would be given more credence than a newspaper
columnist.
Instead, the expert's very expertise is held against him.
You know very well that where academic reputations are at stake
academics will do almost anything to refute an opinon or article
which goes against everything they've been writing for decades.
The point being he had something to protect, while Worthington
had absolutely no axe to grind.
So what did this academic do, then, Paul? Why not refute him on his
facts? Let's start with Bacque's erors in arithmetic. I look forward
to your rebuttal.
In the meantime, ponder this: not only do you dismiss Ambrose because
he is an expert on the subject, but now, it seems, because he actually
published a rebuttal to Bacque--proof positive, to you, that he must
have a hidden agenda. Of such nonsense are closed delusional systems
made. No wonder CODOH and the Institute for Historical Review praise
this guy, when they're not denying the Holocaust.
[Holocaust? Ja, ja, there was a Holocaust. But the Jews did it to the
Germans, not the other way round. Eisenhower had Jewish blood you
know.]
Years ago there was a character on all newsgroups named Serdar Argic,
who insisted that the Armenians were the ones who practised genocide
against the Turks. A similar mushroom is sprouting here.
For you info I know personally German Prisoners that where in the Rein
Main Death camps. You are discrediting all the people that have
experienced the end of world war II and under Allied Control. The Jewish
intentions to discredited James Basque is simply because you people
don't want the rest of the word to know that there is more that one side
of the Stories that your Holohoax. I have been exposed to your Spin
Doctoring Fabrications and inbreed Falsehood and there will never be a
time when you master Liars can Convince me otherwise. The more you stir
up this shit the more it stink. Now co can call me a Nazi if you like
but it will not bother me coming from a Master Jew all my life I have
only known you people for your Falshood.
Kurt Knoll.
Kurt is a lovely man, he believes that the Germans were very badly
treated after the war and that we had no right to be mean to them. After
all the Germans were just trying to give Europe and Africa a taste of
their wonderful lifestyle. Kurt also believes there was no holocaust
And you believe that only the Germans are to blame for the holocaust.

The whole world is to blame, know one liked or accepted the jews, and the
world did nothing to stop the Germans, including the US, who knew about
jewish camps long before they intervened in WW2.
Post by h***@nospam.com
(unless one is willing to only consider the deaths of German POWs). Kurt
believes that it all stems from a massive Jewish conspiracy,
fabrications and that anyone that attempts to say otherwise is a "Master
Jew".
Is that close Kurt?
Gord Webster
2004-01-01 13:23:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Diabolik
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Kurt Knoll
Post by John Baglow
[Baglow]
Post by Ralph Kunkle
Post by John Baglow
Used to be that someone who is an expert in a field--say,
history--would be given more credence than a newspaper
columnist.
Instead, the expert's very expertise is held against him.
You know very well that where academic reputations are at stake
academics will do almost anything to refute an opinon or article
which goes against everything they've been writing for decades.
The point being he had something to protect, while Worthington
had absolutely no axe to grind.
So what did this academic do, then, Paul? Why not refute him on his
facts? Let's start with Bacque's erors in arithmetic. I look forward
to your rebuttal.
In the meantime, ponder this: not only do you dismiss Ambrose because
he is an expert on the subject, but now, it seems, because he actually
published a rebuttal to Bacque--proof positive, to you, that he must
have a hidden agenda. Of such nonsense are closed delusional systems
made. No wonder CODOH and the Institute for Historical Review praise
this guy, when they're not denying the Holocaust.
[Holocaust? Ja, ja, there was a Holocaust. But the Jews did it to the
Germans, not the other way round. Eisenhower had Jewish blood you
know.]
Years ago there was a character on all newsgroups named Serdar Argic,
who insisted that the Armenians were the ones who practised genocide
against the Turks. A similar mushroom is sprouting here.
For you info I know personally German Prisoners that where in the Rein
Main Death camps. You are discrediting all the people that have
experienced the end of world war II and under Allied Control. The Jewish
intentions to discredited James Basque is simply because you people
don't want the rest of the word to know that there is more that one side
of the Stories that your Holohoax. I have been exposed to your Spin
Doctoring Fabrications and inbreed Falsehood and there will never be a
time when you master Liars can Convince me otherwise. The more you stir
up this shit the more it stink. Now co can call me a Nazi if you like
but it will not bother me coming from a Master Jew all my life I have
only known you people for your Falshood.
Kurt Knoll.
Kurt is a lovely man, he believes that the Germans were very badly
treated after the war and that we had no right to be mean to them. After
all the Germans were just trying to give Europe and Africa a taste of
their wonderful lifestyle. Kurt also believes there was no holocaust
And you believe that only the Germans are to blame for the holocaust.
The whole world is to blame, know one liked or accepted the jews, and the
world did nothing to stop the Germans, including the US, who knew about
jewish camps long before they intervened in WW2.
What was the North American view on importing the Jews to America and Canada
when some were escaping the Third Reich?

"One is too many"

Quote from the Prime Minister on the 5 dollar bill (McKenzie King),
referring to Jewish immigrants fleeing the Nazi regime.
Gord Webster
2004-01-01 13:26:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Post by Diabolik
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Kurt Knoll
Post by John Baglow
[Baglow]
Post by Ralph Kunkle
Post by John Baglow
Used to be that someone who is an expert in a field--say,
history--would be given more credence than a newspaper
columnist.
Instead, the expert's very expertise is held against him.
You know very well that where academic reputations are at stake
academics will do almost anything to refute an opinon or article
which goes against everything they've been writing for decades.
The point being he had something to protect, while Worthington
had absolutely no axe to grind.
So what did this academic do, then, Paul? Why not refute him on his
facts? Let's start with Bacque's erors in arithmetic. I look forward
to your rebuttal.
In the meantime, ponder this: not only do you dismiss Ambrose because
he is an expert on the subject, but now, it seems, because he actually
published a rebuttal to Bacque--proof positive, to you, that he must
have a hidden agenda. Of such nonsense are closed delusional systems
made. No wonder CODOH and the Institute for Historical Review praise
this guy, when they're not denying the Holocaust.
[Holocaust? Ja, ja, there was a Holocaust. But the Jews did it to the
Germans, not the other way round. Eisenhower had Jewish blood you
know.]
Years ago there was a character on all newsgroups named Serdar Argic,
who insisted that the Armenians were the ones who practised genocide
against the Turks. A similar mushroom is sprouting here.
For you info I know personally German Prisoners that where in the Rein
Main Death camps. You are discrediting all the people that have
experienced the end of world war II and under Allied Control. The
Jewish
Post by Diabolik
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Kurt Knoll
intentions to discredited James Basque is simply because you people
don't want the rest of the word to know that there is more that one
side
Post by Diabolik
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Kurt Knoll
of the Stories that your Holohoax. I have been exposed to your Spin
Doctoring Fabrications and inbreed Falsehood and there will never be a
time when you master Liars can Convince me otherwise. The more you
stir
Post by Diabolik
Post by h***@nospam.com
Post by Kurt Knoll
up this shit the more it stink. Now co can call me a Nazi if you like
but it will not bother me coming from a Master Jew all my life I have
only known you people for your Falshood.
Kurt Knoll.
Kurt is a lovely man, he believes that the Germans were very badly
treated after the war and that we had no right to be mean to them. After
all the Germans were just trying to give Europe and Africa a taste of
their wonderful lifestyle. Kurt also believes there was no holocaust
And you believe that only the Germans are to blame for the holocaust.
The whole world is to blame, know one liked or accepted the jews, and the
world did nothing to stop the Germans, including the US, who knew about
jewish camps long before they intervened in WW2.
What was the North American view on importing the Jews to America and Canada
when some were escaping the Third Reich?
"One is too many"
Quote from the Prime Minister on the 5 dollar bill (McKenzie King),
referring to Jewish immigrants fleeing the Nazi regime.
I'm not defending Prime Minister King. If your going to burn your $5
bills, send them to me!
John Baglow
2004-01-01 15:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Knoll
For you info I know personally German Prisoners that where in the Rein
Main Death camps. You are discrediting all the people that have
experienced the end of world war II and under Allied Control. The Jewish
intentions to discredited James Basque is simply because you people
don't want the rest of the word to know that there is more that one side
of the Stories that your Holohoax. I have been exposed to your Spin
Doctoring Fabrications and inbreed Falsehood and there will never be a
time when you master Liars can Convince me otherwise. The more you stir
up this shit the more it stink. Now co can call me a Nazi if you like
but it will not bother me coming from a Master Jew all my life I have
only known you people for your Falshood.
Kurt Knoll.
You can take the German out of the Third Reich, but you can't, it
seems, take the Third Reich out of the German, at least in your case.

Why should I take the word of an unreconstructed Nazi like you about
bad treatment in American-run POW camps? At least they didn't have gas
chambers. You got off lightly, Arschloch.

--John Baglow
Gord Webster
2004-01-01 15:31:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Baglow
Post by Kurt Knoll
For you info I know personally German Prisoners that where in the Rein
Main Death camps. You are discrediting all the people that have
experienced the end of world war II and under Allied Control. The Jewish
intentions to discredited James Basque is simply because you people
don't want the rest of the word to know that there is more that one side
of the Stories that your Holohoax. I have been exposed to your Spin
Doctoring Fabrications and inbreed Falsehood and there will never be a
time when you master Liars can Convince me otherwise. The more you stir
up this shit the more it stink. Now co can call me a Nazi if you like
but it will not bother me coming from a Master Jew all my life I have
only known you people for your Falshood.
Kurt Knoll.
You can take the German out of the Third Reich, but you can't, it
seems, take the Third Reich out of the German, at least in your case.
Why should I take the word of an unreconstructed Nazi like you about
bad treatment in American-run POW camps? At least they didn't have gas
chambers. You got off lightly, Arschloch.
--John Baglow
My humble view is that the world gave us Leni Riefenstahl, who made movies
up until her death (of old age) not long ago.

Mel Gibson got heat about his Jesus story, Martin Scorsese did "Last
Temptation of Christ", and got trouble,

Jodii Foster did the story of Leni Riefenstahl and it's still having
problems with (excuse me) the Hollywood that we know and love. It's not
been released. Give her due credit for fighting bias to tell the story of a
legend.

Riefenstah wasn't a NAZI, she was sure a friend of Hitler, but when she
died, even Jewish cultural icons and those who weren't acknowledged her fine
and innovative ways.

Some say "Triumph des Willens" was one of the most brilliant movies of its
time.

Here's the link on IMDB. http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0025913/

Wrong place, wrong time. I guess. It wasn't about politics.
Kurt Knoll
2004-01-01 15:31:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Baglow
Post by Kurt Knoll
For you info I know personally German Prisoners that where in the Rein
Main Death camps. You are discrediting all the people that have
experienced the end of world war II and under Allied Control. The Jewish
intentions to discredited James Basque is simply because you people
don't want the rest of the word to know that there is more that one side
of the Stories that your Holohoax. I have been exposed to your Spin
Doctoring Fabrications and inbreed Falsehood and there will never be a
time when you master Liars can Convince me otherwise. The more you stir
up this shit the more it stink. Now co can call me a Nazi if you like
but it will not bother me coming from a Master Jew all my life I have
only known you people for your Falshood.
Kurt Knoll.
You can take the German out of the Third Reich, but you can't, it
seems, take the Third Reich out of the German, at least in your case.
Why should I take the word of an unreconstructed Nazi like you about
bad treatment in American-run POW camps? At least they didn't have gas
chambers. You got off lightly, Arschloch.
--John Baglow
You must have grown up on a Comic book. The facts are that after
Capitulation the Germans were forced to sign an agreement that Forbids
them to write or Publish anything that could but the Americans into a
bad light. Only now after mar than 55 years and because of the new media
"the internet" Things come to light were the German People were never
allowed to talk about before. In Parallel compare this with what is
going on in Iraq an the middle east and what transpires there. But wait
they are already working on it to restrict the freedom of information on
the Internet because whatever people are saying now could be considered
a hate Crime. By the time you and all of us find out what restrictions
will be imposed it will be too late. As for your Holocaust the people
that are in control of it will make the decisions for all of us.

Kurt Knoll.
=
John Baglow
2004-01-02 00:22:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Knoll
Post by John Baglow
How's your lampshade collection, Herr Dummkopf?
--John Baglow
You can look it up on the Internet. The Lampshades from Isle Koch
were
Post by Kurt Knoll
made out of Big skins.
I think you mean pigskins. Some even claim goatskins. Amazing, these
German farmers--spending all that money tattooing their farm animals.
And in wartime, too!
Post by Kurt Knoll
But no wonder the Defence was never allowed to
have a Forensic Testing done. Isle Koch's Son was so much Victimized
by
Post by Kurt Knoll
you're Kind In-laws that he Committed suicide. Are you Proud of it
you
Post by Kurt Knoll
Fuckead.
Proud? I had nothing to do with it. But it's a shame a few more of you
didn't do the decent thing.

--John Baglow
Kurt Knoll
2004-01-02 02:01:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Baglow
Post by Kurt Knoll
Post by John Baglow
How's your lampshade collection, Herr Dummkopf?
--John Baglow
You can look it up on the Internet. The Lampshades from Isle Koch
were
Post by Kurt Knoll
made out of Big skins.
I think you mean pigskins. Some even claim goatskins. Amazing, these
German farmers--spending all that money tattooing their farm animals.
And in wartime, too!
Post by Kurt Knoll
But no wonder the Defence was never allowed to
have a Forensic Testing done. Isle Koch's Son was so much Victimized
by
Post by Kurt Knoll
you're Kind In-laws that he Committed suicide. Are you Proud of it
you
Post by Kurt Knoll
Fuckead.
Proud? I had nothing to do with it. But it's a shame a few more of you
didn't do the decent thing.
--John Baglow
I do not think the Farmers were Artists but if comes to University Freak
The rather have Pigskins to experiment with. Their Foreskin they are
using for something else.

Kurt Knoll.
=

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