Discussion:
"Islamic finance rides the storm" - "Justice, partnership and opposition to excessive risk" outdo UNREGULATED GREED!
(too old to reply)
fasgnadh
2008-10-12 00:50:51 UTC
Permalink
"A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"

- http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html


"The most despised of men before God is he who
sits and begs. ...
The best men are they that earn a livelihood by their
calling and spend upon themselves and upon their
kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds."

- Baha'u'llah


"Islamic finance rides the storm"
The Age 11/10/2008

"A thriving financial sector sounds like an oxymoron
these days. Even Australia's banks - among the most
profitable in the world - kept a fifth of this week's
interest rate cut to cushion their margins. But there
is one sector that has tongues wagging in the hubs of
commerce: Islamic finance.

While the Western world's financial system has been
imploding, this small but rapidly growing share of
world capital has weathered the storm.

Sharemarkets in London and New York are a third off
their peaks. Dow Jones's Islamic financials index,
in contrast, rose 4.75 per cent in the most recent
September quarter and lost a modest 7 per cent in
the previous year.

Not only has the industry been resilient; it's also on
the cusp of serious expansion. It is growing faster
than any other subset of world banking, at 15 to 20 per
cent a year. The Economist estimates Islamic assets
under management are worth $US700 billion ($1000 billion).
This figure could hit $US1 trillion - about the
Australian sharemarket's current value - by 2010.

What's more, all this growth has come from a model of
lending that rejects interest payments and shuns
speculation and heavy borrowing."

Halleluja!

Speculation has been ruinous in the West.

Greed has been the foundation of enormous disparities
in economic wellbeing, economic injustice, and instability.

"In short, Islamic finance bans some of the excess that
has brought the West's financial system to its knees,
and is looking wise indeed, or at least lucky.

Islamic finance takes its guidance from sharia.

The biggest markets are in the Middle East and Muslim
countries, but global banks have opened sharia-compliant
branches. Locally, the Muslim Community Co-operative
is one of a few lenders offering the service.

Justice, partnership and opposition to excessive risk
are the main principles guiding Islamic banks."

Say that again.

"Outright speculation and dealing with any party that
has a balance sheet more than a third of which is debt
are forbidden, as are investments deemed unethical by
Islamic scholars, such as casinos.

But if these rules sound tough, the biggest difference
is a ban on interest.

Charging interest is immoral because it does not take
into account how changes in the value of the loan's
security can affect the borrower, sharia says. Home
owners who bought near the peak are now experiencing
this harsh reality: interest gives banks a steady payment
from the borrower, regardless of the property market's state.

However, profit is fine, and Islamic banks have devised
ways to make money from lending. Instead of demanding
interest, they buy the asset outright on behalf of the
borrower. The borrower pays off the loan (the principle)
and a fee for using the asset (rent, for example) until
the amount is repaid and ownership transfers to the borrower.

Just like mortgage-backed securities, the rights to loan
repayments can be sold as an Islamic bond, or sukuk.
But instead of a yield, the bondholder receives repayments
on the loan, and some rent. As a result, Islamic lenders
have not had to venture into money markets that have
recently blown up.

For depositors, putting your money with an Islamic bank
is more like being a shareholder. Rather than interest,
depositors get a cut of any profits.

Understandably, Western governments are casting around for
ideas on how to run a more robust financial system. But
what could they possibly learn from such a different approach?

Islamic finance's more prudent rules on debt look attractive
in hindsight. But more fundamentally, proponents say it
provides a better way to link the financial system to
the "real" economy.

Because Islamic banks keep ownership of the asset until
the loan is repaid, they have a greater incentive to make
sure borrowers do not bite off more than they can chew.
The bank shares in the risks of the entrepreneur but also
its failures, the argument goes.

I am not suggesting we switch to a lending system without
interest payments. But a big gripe emerging in recent
weeks is that finance has become out of whack with the
needs of the rest of the economy.

In the most extreme cases, it seems investment bankers
devoted themselves to developing inventive ways to get
higher bonuses rather than facilitating productive
investment. Islamic finance shows one way of ensuring
savings are put to more useful ends.

Some even say banning short selling of shares reflects
sharia thinking, because it stops traders dealing with
assets they don't own. "Banning short selling is one
of the decisive elements in Islamic finance, so it
seems almost that the conventional markets are looking
at the Islamic techniques, which so far did not play
any role in conventional markets," a financial journalist
from Dubai, Gerard Al-Fil, told ABC radio last month.

Sceptics say Islamic finance just dresses up Western
finance with different titles. It is also worth noting
that the system is not immune from creating bubbles,
although the method of lending makes it harder for
investors to pile in through debt. A conflict between
its religious goals and the goal of turning a profit
is another tension, The Economist notes.

Nevertheless, it is booming. High oil prices have
filled the coffers of Gulf states, and the region
is crammed with capital works projects in need of
funding. Muslims account for 20 per cent of the
world's population, but Islamic finance makes up
less than 1 per cent of world capital, suggesting
huge room for growth.

The Islamic bond market has tapered off in the credit
crunch, but this appears to be a blip. About $US14
billion in Islamic bonds were issued in the eight
months to August, down from $US23 billion in the same
time last year, but Standard & Poor's expects issuance
to hit $US25 billion next year.

This potential has not crept past Western banks unnoticed,
and many have fast-growing sharia-compliant arms.
London is vying to capture the market and has changed
its laws to allow the different property transfers
required for the lending. British media report growing
interest even among non-Muslims because of perceptions
that it is a more ethical approach to finance.

So expect to see more Islamic banks in years ahead as
global banks try to cash in on this growing field.
Given the present financial mess, the industry's
resilience only makes it harder to ignore."


---------

"Money is our god" - The First International Bank of the Golden Calf

"Money not morality is the principal of a commercial nation"
- Thomas Jefferson

---------

"Ohhhhh Say can you see
By the dawns early light
The markets in panic
and Republicans take flight! "

---------


"The Fundamentals of our Economy remain Strong" - John McSame,
Republican Candidate for the Presidency of the Derivative Ravaged,
Crisis torn, Economic Basket Case, The USSA!

http://www.geocities.com/townsville_taliban/endoscope.html


---------
kangarooistan
2008-10-12 18:17:24 UTC
Permalink
    "A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"
      -http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html
     "The most despised of men before God is he who
     sits and begs. ...
     The best men are they that earn a livelihood by their
     calling and spend upon themselves and upon their
     kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds."
           - Baha'u'llah
"Islamic finance rides the storm"
      The Age 11/10/2008
"A thriving financial sector sounds like an oxymoron
these days. Even Australia's banks - among the most
profitable in the world - kept a fifth of this week's
interest rate cut to cushion their margins. But there
is one sector that has tongues wagging in the hubs of
commerce: Islamic finance.
While the Western world's financial system has been
imploding, this small but rapidly growing share of
world capital has weathered the storm.
Sharemarkets in London and New York are a third off
their peaks. Dow Jones's Islamic financials index,
in contrast, rose 4.75 per cent in the most recent
September quarter and lost a modest 7 per cent in
the previous year.
Not only has the industry been resilient; it's also on
the cusp of serious expansion. It is growing faster
than any other subset of world banking, at 15 to 20 per
cent a year. The Economist estimates Islamic assets
under management are worth $US700 billion ($1000 billion).
This figure could hit $US1 trillion - about the
Australian sharemarket's current value - by 2010.
What's more, all this growth has come from a model of
lending that rejects interest payments and shuns
speculation and heavy borrowing."
     Halleluja!
     Speculation has been ruinous in the West.
     Greed has been the foundation of enormous disparities
     in economic wellbeing, economic injustice, and instability.
"In short, Islamic finance bans some of the excess that
has brought the West's financial system to its knees,
and is looking wise indeed, or at least lucky.
Islamic finance takes its guidance from sharia.
The biggest markets are in the Middle East and Muslim
countries, but global banks have opened sharia-compliant
branches. Locally, the Muslim Community Co-operative
is one of a few lenders offering the service.
Justice, partnership and opposition to excessive risk
are the main principles guiding Islamic banks."
     Say that again.
"Outright speculation and dealing with any party that
has a balance sheet more than a third of which is debt
are forbidden, as are investments deemed unethical by
Islamic scholars, such as casinos.
But if these rules sound tough, the biggest difference
is a ban on interest.
Charging interest is immoral because it does not take
into account how changes in the value of the loan's
security can affect the borrower, sharia says. Home
owners who bought near the peak are now experiencing
this harsh reality: interest gives banks a steady payment
from the borrower, regardless of the property market's state.
However, profit is fine, and Islamic banks have devised
ways to make money from lending. Instead of demanding
interest, they buy the asset outright on behalf of the
borrower. The borrower pays off the loan (the principle)
and a fee for using the asset (rent, for example) until
the amount is repaid and ownership transfers to the borrower.
Just like mortgage-backed securities, the rights to loan
repayments can be sold as an Islamic bond, or sukuk.
But instead of a yield, the bondholder receives repayments
on the loan, and some rent. As a result, Islamic lenders
have not had to venture into money markets that have
recently blown up.
For depositors, putting your money with an Islamic bank
is more like being a shareholder. Rather than interest,
depositors get a cut of any profits.
Understandably, Western governments are casting around for
ideas on how to run a more robust financial system. But
what could they possibly learn from such a different approach?
Islamic finance's more prudent rules on debt look attractive
in hindsight. But more fundamentally, proponents say it
provides a better way to link the financial system to
the "real" economy.
Because Islamic banks keep ownership of the asset until
the loan is repaid, they have a greater incentive to make
sure borrowers do not bite off more than they can chew.
The bank shares in the risks of the entrepreneur but also
its failures, the argument goes.
I am not suggesting we switch to a lending system without
interest payments. But a big gripe emerging in recent
weeks is that finance has become out of whack with the
needs of the rest of the economy.
In the most extreme cases, it seems investment bankers
devoted themselves to developing inventive ways to get
higher bonuses rather than facilitating productive
investment. Islamic finance shows one way of ensuring
savings are put to more useful ends.
Some even say banning short selling of shares reflects
sharia thinking, because it stops traders dealing with
assets they don't own. "Banning short selling is one
of the decisive elements in Islamic finance, so it
seems almost that the conventional markets are looking
at the Islamic techniques, which so far did not play
any role in conventional markets," a financial journalist
from Dubai, Gerard Al-Fil, told ABC radio last month.
Sceptics say Islamic finance just dresses up Western
finance with different titles. It is also worth noting
that the system is not immune from creating bubbles,
although the method of lending makes it harder for
investors to pile in through debt. A conflict between
its religious goals and the goal of turning a profit
is another tension, The Economist notes.
Nevertheless, it is booming. High oil prices have
filled the coffers of Gulf states, and the region
is crammed with capital works projects in need of
funding. Muslims account for 20 per cent of the
world's population, but Islamic finance makes up
less than 1 per cent of world capital, suggesting
huge room for growth.
The Islamic bond market has tapered off in the credit
crunch, but this appears to be a blip. About $US14
billion in Islamic bonds were issued in the eight
months to August, down from $US23 billion in the same
time last year, but Standard & Poor's expects issuance
to hit $US25 billion next year.
This potential has not crept past Western banks unnoticed,
and many have fast-growing sharia-compliant arms.
London is vying to capture the market and has changed
its laws to allow the different property transfers
required for the lending. British media report growing
interest even among non-Muslims because of perceptions
that it is a more ethical approach to finance.
So expect to see more Islamic banks in years ahead as
global banks try to cash in on this growing field.
Given the present financial mess, the industry's
resilience only makes it harder to ignore."
  ---------
"Money is our god"  - The First International Bank of the Golden Calf
"Money not morality is the principal of a commercial nation"
     - Thomas Jefferson
  ---------
         "Ohhhhh Say can you see
               By the dawns early light
          The markets in panic
              and Republicans take flight! "
  ---------
    "The Fundamentals of our Economy remain Strong"  - John McSame,
   Republican Candidate for the Presidency of the Derivative Ravaged,
   Crisis torn, Economic Basket Case, The USSA!
   http://www.geocities.com/townsville_taliban/endoscope.html
  ---------
excellent article

Islam is a complete way of life that has evolved over many centuries

Islamic banking has been fine tuned for over 1000 years and like most
areas of life has stood the test of time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking
.
Western countries banking are only a few hundred years old and are
very complex

islamic banking can even be done without any written contract

A number of innovative concepts and techniques were introduced in
early Islamic banking, including contracts, bills of exchange, long-
distance international trade, the first forms of partnership
(mufawada) such as limited partnerships (mudaraba), and the earliest
forms of credit, debt, profit, loss, capital (al-mal), capital
accumulation (nama al-mal),[3] circulating capital, capital
expenditure, revenue, cheques, promissory notes,[4] trusts (see Waqf),
startup companies,[5] savings accounts, transactional accounts,
pawning, loaning, exchange rates, bankers, money changers, ledgers,
deposits, assignments,[6] and lawsuits.[7] Organizational enterprises
similar to corporations independent from the state also existed in the
medieval Islamic world, while the agency institution was also
introduced.[8][9] Many of these early capitalist concepts were adopted
and further advanced in medieval Europe from the 13th century onwards.
[3]

In another thousand years the western countries may finally work Islam
has worked out many excellent tried and tested ways to manage life in
all manner of different areas

Islamic banking seems like a very good idea to me and is growing very
fast
B J Foster
2008-10-12 21:16:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by fasgnadh
"A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"
- http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html
"The most despised of men before God is he who
sits and begs. ...
The best men are they that earn a livelihood by their
calling and spend upon themselves and upon their
kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds."
- Baha'u'llah
Are you aware that Bahai has SFA to do with Islam?

FUSA
Post by fasgnadh
"Islamic finance rides the storm"
The Age 11/10/2008
"A thriving financial sector sounds like an oxymoron
these days. Even Australia's banks - among the most
profitable in the world - kept a fifth of this week's
interest rate cut to cushion their margins. But there
is one sector that has tongues wagging in the hubs of
commerce: Islamic finance.
While the Western world's financial system has been
imploding, this small but rapidly growing share of
world capital has weathered the storm.
Sharemarkets in London and New York are a third off
their peaks. Dow Jones's Islamic financials index,
in contrast, rose 4.75 per cent in the most recent
September quarter and lost a modest 7 per cent in
the previous year.
Not only has the industry been resilient; it's also on
the cusp of serious expansion. It is growing faster
than any other subset of world banking, at 15 to 20 per
cent a year. The Economist estimates Islamic assets
under management are worth $US700 billion ($1000 billion).
This figure could hit $US1 trillion - about the
Australian sharemarket's current value - by 2010.
What's more, all this growth has come from a model of
lending that rejects interest payments and shuns
speculation and heavy borrowing."
Halleluja!
Speculation has been ruinous in the West.
Greed has been the foundation of enormous disparities
in economic wellbeing, economic injustice, and instability.
"In short, Islamic finance bans some of the excess that
has brought the West's financial system to its knees,
and is looking wise indeed, or at least lucky.
Islamic finance takes its guidance from sharia.
The biggest markets are in the Middle East and Muslim
countries, but global banks have opened sharia-compliant
branches. Locally, the Muslim Community Co-operative
is one of a few lenders offering the service.
Justice, partnership and opposition to excessive risk
are the main principles guiding Islamic banks."
Say that again.
"Outright speculation and dealing with any party that
has a balance sheet more than a third of which is debt
are forbidden, as are investments deemed unethical by
Islamic scholars, such as casinos.
But if these rules sound tough, the biggest difference
is a ban on interest.
Charging interest is immoral because it does not take
into account how changes in the value of the loan's
security can affect the borrower, sharia says. Home
owners who bought near the peak are now experiencing
this harsh reality: interest gives banks a steady payment
from the borrower, regardless of the property market's state.
However, profit is fine, and Islamic banks have devised
ways to make money from lending. Instead of demanding
interest, they buy the asset outright on behalf of the
borrower. The borrower pays off the loan (the principle)
and a fee for using the asset (rent, for example) until
the amount is repaid and ownership transfers to the borrower.
Just like mortgage-backed securities, the rights to loan
repayments can be sold as an Islamic bond, or sukuk.
But instead of a yield, the bondholder receives repayments
on the loan, and some rent. As a result, Islamic lenders
have not had to venture into money markets that have
recently blown up.
For depositors, putting your money with an Islamic bank
is more like being a shareholder. Rather than interest,
depositors get a cut of any profits.
Understandably, Western governments are casting around for
ideas on how to run a more robust financial system. But
what could they possibly learn from such a different approach?
Islamic finance's more prudent rules on debt look attractive
in hindsight. But more fundamentally, proponents say it
provides a better way to link the financial system to
the "real" economy.
Because Islamic banks keep ownership of the asset until
the loan is repaid, they have a greater incentive to make
sure borrowers do not bite off more than they can chew.
The bank shares in the risks of the entrepreneur but also
its failures, the argument goes.
I am not suggesting we switch to a lending system without
interest payments. But a big gripe emerging in recent
weeks is that finance has become out of whack with the
needs of the rest of the economy.
In the most extreme cases, it seems investment bankers
devoted themselves to developing inventive ways to get
higher bonuses rather than facilitating productive
investment. Islamic finance shows one way of ensuring
savings are put to more useful ends.
Some even say banning short selling of shares reflects
sharia thinking, because it stops traders dealing with
assets they don't own. "Banning short selling is one
of the decisive elements in Islamic finance, so it
seems almost that the conventional markets are looking
at the Islamic techniques, which so far did not play
any role in conventional markets," a financial journalist
from Dubai, Gerard Al-Fil, told ABC radio last month.
Sceptics say Islamic finance just dresses up Western
finance with different titles. It is also worth noting
that the system is not immune from creating bubbles,
although the method of lending makes it harder for
investors to pile in through debt. A conflict between
its religious goals and the goal of turning a profit
is another tension, The Economist notes.
Nevertheless, it is booming. High oil prices have
filled the coffers of Gulf states, and the region
is crammed with capital works projects in need of
funding. Muslims account for 20 per cent of the
world's population, but Islamic finance makes up
less than 1 per cent of world capital, suggesting
huge room for growth.
The Islamic bond market has tapered off in the credit
crunch, but this appears to be a blip. About $US14
billion in Islamic bonds were issued in the eight
months to August, down from $US23 billion in the same
time last year, but Standard & Poor's expects issuance
to hit $US25 billion next year.
This potential has not crept past Western banks unnoticed,
and many have fast-growing sharia-compliant arms.
London is vying to capture the market and has changed
its laws to allow the different property transfers
required for the lending. British media report growing
interest even among non-Muslims because of perceptions
that it is a more ethical approach to finance.
So expect to see more Islamic banks in years ahead as
global banks try to cash in on this growing field.
Given the present financial mess, the industry's
resilience only makes it harder to ignore."
---------
"Money is our god" - The First International Bank of the Golden Calf
"Money not morality is the principal of a commercial nation"
- Thomas Jefferson
---------
"Ohhhhh Say can you see
By the dawns early light
The markets in panic
and Republicans take flight! "
---------
"The Fundamentals of our Economy remain Strong" - John McSame,
Republican Candidate for the Presidency of the Derivative Ravaged,
Crisis torn, Economic Basket Case, The USSA!
http://www.geocities.com/townsville_taliban/endoscope.html
---------
kangarooistan
2008-10-13 10:53:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by B J Foster
   "A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"
     -http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html
    "The most despised of men before God is he who
    sits and begs. ...
    The best men are they that earn a livelihood by their
    calling and spend upon themselves and upon their
    kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds."
          - Baha'u'llah
.
.
Post by B J Foster
Are you aware that Bahai has SFA to do with Islam?
Baha'i and Sikhism and Druze and Judaism were all created by and for
the western colonial empires to act astheir under cover agents and hit
men in the colonial invasions of muslim countries

They are ALL fabrications of the west that are still serving their
masters to help destabilize and divide their respective countries
until they have served their purposes , then they will be squashed ,

go read up on the colonial methods of war
try and get books written by people who were there in the 1800s and
not the western propaganda crap that is like the WMD lies , the truth
is out there for those who care to look and need to know the truth to
know where we are heading , most western people have only ever read
the propaganda and can not admit they have been scammed

malkom khan was very good if you care to find his books from that
era , he knew all sides and was on the inside of the real action for
many decades. and despite the lies spread , he was right on every time
as judged by history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirza_Malkom_Khan


UK banks set for £45bn rescue - sources
Irish Times, Ireland - 2 hours ago
.
BANK CRISIS: UK GOVERNMENT INJECTS 48 BILLION IN 3 INSTITUTES
.


(AGI) - London, Oct 13 - The British government will inject 37 billion
pounds (47.7 billion euros) in three big UK banks. The Royal Bank of
Scotland will increase its capital by 20 billion pounds, of which 15
supplied by the government, which will also take 5 billion pounds in
preference shares, making it the bank's main shareholder. Also Hbos
and Loyds will participate in the government programme, while Barclays
will find a solution without government assistance, raising its
capital by 6.5 billion pounds.
.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Taxpayer pour even more billions into failed banking systems rather
than face reality

It will take generations of taxpayers to repay the money being handed
over to corporate criminals

Why do western taxpayers hate their chrildren and grandchildren so
much they let them pay for western white capitalist white collar
criminals luxury life styles

western taxpayers simply refuse to admit they are in deep trouble
from endless wars for Israel and USA oil barrons and corporate
gambling addicts

Sooner or later western taxpayers or their children will be forced to
face reality

Another day , another 50 or 100 billion bailout , but can not go on
much longer , the day of judgment fast approaches whether the western
taxpayers admit it or not

kangarooistan
==========
.
Royal Bank of Scotland, HBOS and Lloyds TSB were in line to receive
the billions of pounds from investors and taxpayers in a bid to rescue
them from the ...
.
BANK CRISIS: UK GOVERNMENT INJECTS 48 BILLION IN 3 INSTITUTES Agenzia
Giornalistica Italia
Royal Bank of Scotland - owner of Ulster Bank - surrenders control ...
FinFacts Ireland
.
Barclays Plans to Raise More Than 6.5 Billion Pounds (Update2)
Bloomberg
Reuters - Merchant News
all 2,372 news articles » RBS - BCS - PINK:BCLYF

Daily Mail
Bank chiefs quit after rescue bid
BBC News, UK - 1 hour ago
"Taxpayers would end up owning about 60% of Royal Bank of Scotland and
about 40% of a super retail bank formed by Lloyds TSB buying HBOS. ...
.
Chief who quit: 'Fred the Shred' earned respect and fear Independent
British Land CEO Stephen Hester to join Royal Bank Of Scotland as ...
RTT News
.
Goodwin steps down as RBS chief executive Irish Times
Times Online - Financial Times
all 416 news articles » RBS - LON:BLND
.
Royal Bank of Scotland, HBOS Set to Be Taken Over by Government
Bloomberg - 9 hours ago
Royal Bank of Scotland Chief Executive Officer Fred Goodwin plans to
step down, two people familiar with the matter said yesterday. ...
.
UK reportedly to invest billions in banks MarketWatch
Britain Plans Major Infusion of Capital to Prop Up Banking Sector
Washington Post
.
Collapse of Icelandic banks hits RBS Connecticut Post
Bloomberg - Bloomberg
all 487 news articles » RBS - OTC:HBOOY - LON:HBOS

ITV.com
UK to take major stake in Citizens' parent bank
Boston Globe, United States - 2 hours ago
The government of the United Kingdom's prime minister, Gordon Brown,
will today take a majority stake in Royal Bank of Scotland Group PLC,
the parent of ...
.
Taxpayers to take stake in banks guardian.co.uk
all 235 news articles »
.
TEXT-Royal Bank of Scotland capital raising
Forbes, NY - 1 hour ago
RBS will remain a globally important bank with a strong range of
powerful franchises in retail and wholesale customer businesses. ...
TEXT-Royal Bank of Scotland capital raising Reuters
Royal Bank of Scotland Announces GBP 20 Bln Capital Raising ... RTT
News
.
RBS raising £20bn including £5bn from Government CityWire.co.uk
EasyBourse.com
all 10 news articles » RBS

Investment Markets
Costain, HBOS, RBS, Clinton Cards: UK, Irish Equity Preview
Bloomberg - 6 hours ago
Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc (RBS LN): UK Prime Minister Gordon
Brown's government is set to buy majority stakes in Royal Bank of
Scotland and HBOS Plc ...
.

UK nationalizes BCE-lender Royal Bank of Scotland
National Post, Canada - 5 hours ago
.
One of the lenders in the $52-billion leveraged buyout of BCE Inc.,
the Royal Bank of Scotland, has been injected with £20-billion of
funds by the United ...
.

BBC News
EU Commission approves Govt rescue plan
RTE.ie, Ireland - 2 hours ago
It could see the government taking a controlling interest in Royal
Bank of Scotland and HBOS. The investment is part of the £500bn
British rescue plan which ...
.
RBS, HBOS, Lloyds Get 37 Billion-Pound UK Bailout (Update2) Bloomberg
Jeremy Warner: The goalposts have shifted dramatically Independent
.
Taxpayers to rescue Royal Bank and HBOS Aberdeen Press and Journal
BBC News - Yorkshire Post
all 66 news articles » OTC:HBOOY - LON:HBOS - RBS

RTE.ie
Lloyds lowers HBOS takeover offer
BBC News, UK - 1 hour ago
HBOS, which was formed by the merger of the Halifax and Bank of
Scotland, is the UK's largest mortgage lender with a 20% market share.
.
Taxpayer to be superbank's biggest shareholder Independent
Lloyds Lowers HBOS Takeover Bid Sky News
UK Stocks Rebound After Government Bank Bailout; Lloyds Gains
Bloomberg
Times Online - Blatherskite
all 93 news articles » LYG - RBS

Sky News
Speculation over financial institutions
Aberdeen Press and Journal, UK - 1 hour ago
British eyes, however, will be fixed firmly on the Royal Bank of
Scotland and HBOS over the possibility of the government becoming the
major shareholder in ...
.
Jobs vanishing fast but rate of decline in activity slows The Herald
£250bn wiped off Footsie stocks The Press Association
Financial crisis: FTSE suffers worst week as panic sets in
Telegraph.co.uk
Xinhua - guardian.co.uk
all 1,006 news articles »
t***@aol.com
2008-10-13 11:25:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by kangarooistan
Post by B J Foster
Are you aware that Bahai has SFA to do with Islam?
Baha'i and Sikhism and Druze and Judaism were all created by and for
the western colonial empires to act astheir under cover agents and hit
men in the colonial invasions of muslim countries
What is the punishment prescribed by Islam for an apostate like
Baha'u'llah?

Svenne
fasgnadh
2008-10-13 12:50:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
"A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"
- http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html
"The most despised of men before God is he who
sits and begs. ...
The best men are they that earn a livelihood by their
calling and spend upon themselves and upon their
kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds."
- Baha'u'llah
Are you aware that Bahai has SFA to do with Islam?
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAAAA!

That's like saying 'What does Jesus have to do with Judaism!?"


The Bahá'í faith began in Peria in 1842 with the Bab, (the Gate),
Siyyid `Alí Muhammad-i-Shírází...

Do you even know what 'Siyyid' means? It's a title given to the
DESCENDANTS (through the male line) of the Prophet Mohammed! B^D
('Mirza' denotes a descendant through the mother)

SFA to do with Islam!? B^D

"Bahá'ís believe that Siyyid `Alí Muhammad-i-Shírází, known as
the Báb (1819-1850), is the promised Twelfth Imam, the Mahdi"

i.e the fulfillment of Shí`a prophesy!!! B^D

Do you know who the Shí`a are? B^D

Do you know what an Imam is?

Can you Google 'Mahdi'? B^D How about 'CLUELESS'?

Do you have the REMOTEST idea what you are talking about????

SFA to do with Islam!? B^D

The Bab, proclaimed the coming of "The Promised One of all Ages",
who would UNITE the worlds religions.. (do you think that might
include Islam, BJ?? B^) Have you ever met a Bahai...?

Bahá'u'lláh

Literally "The Glory of Allah"

is any of this ringing bells with you? ;-)


Born Mírzá H.usayn-`Alí Nuri (remember what "Mirza" means..?

8^o another descendant of the Prophet Mohammed!
What religion would that be, BJ?

"Bahá'u'lláh's father, Mírzá Buzurg, served as vizier to Imám-Virdi
Mírzá, the twelfth son of Fat?h Ali Shah Qajar. Mírzá Buzurg was later
appointed governor of Burujird and Lorestan,

The Babi's and the Persian Bahá'ís WERE MUSLIMS.. they bear
the same relation to Islam as Early followers of Christianity
did to Judaism.. (i.e. they were JEWS! B^)

Just as Christianity 'grows out of' Judaism, is both a DISTINCT
and SEPARATE new religion, but intrinsically linked to and
interwoven with Judaism (containing the Jewish scripture within
it's own) so

The Bahai faith 'grows out of' Islam, is both a Distinct and
SEPARATE new religion, but intrinsically linked to and
interwoven with Islam (counting the Koran, the Torah the New
Testament.. among it's own scriptures.


Finally.. as Christians claim to be the fulfillment of Jewish
prophesy (no matter that the Jews disagree) the Bahá'í faith
claims to be the fulfillment of the prophesies of Islam and
Christianity! 8^o

It's a bit hard to pretend there is no connection..

But I'm sure you will continue to try..

Your ability to deny reality is unsurpassed in Usenet.


Oh, before you post about the fierce persecution of the
Bahá'í in Iran, Google my posts on the subject..

then reflect upon the response of Judaism to the Messiah
on First Advent.

Or I could introduce you to my Persian friends, especially
the elderly woman who survived torture in Tehran,
and now invites the local Muslim students at Monash for dinner..

no one passes up Persian cooking! B^D


SFA to do with Islam? B^D

The Bahá'í faith teaches One World:

"Ye are all the leaves of one tree, and the Drops of One Ocean".

It includes the Koran (and the Bible) as sacred Texts

You can't separate what is simply expressions of the One God.
Post by B J Foster
FUSA
You poor pathetic obsessive.. I show how discredited your
doctrinaire ideology is and how far removed from reality
your Utopian theories are, and you follow me around
seeking revenge by shooting yourself in the foot again
and again!

In this, a substantial piece about ISLAMIC FINANCE, you
again ignore EVERY SIGNIFICANT AND RELEVANT ISSUE and instead
pursue your ridiculous, petty and ABSURDLY FLAWED vendetta!

B^D

Will you EVER learn?




Tell us about how Capitalism was 'defined' in 1964 by
Ayn Rand "the person who basically defined capitalism"

- Message-ID: <48f19189$0$31802$***@news.optusnet.com.au>

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHA

Centuries AFTER it's formation!!!!! B^D


Tell us about how Astrology is as relevant as Political
Party in answering the question

" BTW, does anyone have a list of the Congressmen who voted
against the bill the first time and for it after regaining
their sanity? I have the final vote.. but who switched? "

That was the issue being discussed when BlowJob gave us his
sage advice about astrology and was mocked mightily and with
considerable wit.. now the pathetic little hypocrite,
forger and liar is SOOKING and complaining that someone
OTHER THAN HIM, couldn't take a joke!

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAAAAAA

Or will you just FORGE your words as mine and then
argue with yourself?

Could you have a 'finite probability' of winning, even then?


BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
"Islamic finance rides the storm"
The Age 11/10/2008
"A thriving financial sector sounds like an oxymoron
these days. Even Australia's banks - among the most
profitable in the world - kept a fifth of this week's
interest rate cut to cushion their margins. But there
is one sector that has tongues wagging in the hubs of
commerce: Islamic finance.
While the Western world's financial system has been
imploding, this small but rapidly growing share of
world capital has weathered the storm.
Sharemarkets in London and New York are a third off
their peaks. Dow Jones's Islamic financials index,
in contrast, rose 4.75 per cent in the most recent
September quarter and lost a modest 7 per cent in
the previous year.
Not only has the industry been resilient; it's also on
the cusp of serious expansion. It is growing faster
than any other subset of world banking, at 15 to 20 per
cent a year. The Economist estimates Islamic assets
under management are worth $US700 billion ($1000 billion).
This figure could hit $US1 trillion - about the
Australian sharemarket's current value - by 2010.
What's more, all this growth has come from a model of
lending that rejects interest payments and shuns
speculation and heavy borrowing."
Halleluja!
Speculation has been ruinous in the West.
Greed has been the foundation of enormous disparities
in economic wellbeing, economic injustice, and instability.
"In short, Islamic finance bans some of the excess that
has brought the West's financial system to its knees,
and is looking wise indeed, or at least lucky.
Islamic finance takes its guidance from sharia.
The biggest markets are in the Middle East and Muslim
countries, but global banks have opened sharia-compliant
branches. Locally, the Muslim Community Co-operative
is one of a few lenders offering the service.
Justice, partnership and opposition to excessive risk
are the main principles guiding Islamic banks."
Say that again.
"Outright speculation and dealing with any party that
has a balance sheet more than a third of which is debt
are forbidden, as are investments deemed unethical by
Islamic scholars, such as casinos.
But if these rules sound tough, the biggest difference
is a ban on interest.
Charging interest is immoral because it does not take
into account how changes in the value of the loan's
security can affect the borrower, sharia says. Home
owners who bought near the peak are now experiencing
this harsh reality: interest gives banks a steady payment
from the borrower, regardless of the property market's state.
However, profit is fine, and Islamic banks have devised
ways to make money from lending. Instead of demanding
interest, they buy the asset outright on behalf of the
borrower. The borrower pays off the loan (the principle)
and a fee for using the asset (rent, for example) until
the amount is repaid and ownership transfers to the borrower.
Just like mortgage-backed securities, the rights to loan
repayments can be sold as an Islamic bond, or sukuk.
But instead of a yield, the bondholder receives repayments
on the loan, and some rent. As a result, Islamic lenders
have not had to venture into money markets that have
recently blown up.
For depositors, putting your money with an Islamic bank
is more like being a shareholder. Rather than interest,
depositors get a cut of any profits.
Understandably, Western governments are casting around for
ideas on how to run a more robust financial system. But
what could they possibly learn from such a different approach?
Islamic finance's more prudent rules on debt look attractive
in hindsight. But more fundamentally, proponents say it
provides a better way to link the financial system to
the "real" economy.
Because Islamic banks keep ownership of the asset until
the loan is repaid, they have a greater incentive to make
sure borrowers do not bite off more than they can chew.
The bank shares in the risks of the entrepreneur but also
its failures, the argument goes.
I am not suggesting we switch to a lending system without
interest payments. But a big gripe emerging in recent
weeks is that finance has become out of whack with the
needs of the rest of the economy.
In the most extreme cases, it seems investment bankers
devoted themselves to developing inventive ways to get
higher bonuses rather than facilitating productive
investment. Islamic finance shows one way of ensuring
savings are put to more useful ends.
Some even say banning short selling of shares reflects
sharia thinking, because it stops traders dealing with
assets they don't own. "Banning short selling is one
of the decisive elements in Islamic finance, so it
seems almost that the conventional markets are looking
at the Islamic techniques, which so far did not play
any role in conventional markets," a financial journalist
from Dubai, Gerard Al-Fil, told ABC radio last month.
Sceptics say Islamic finance just dresses up Western
finance with different titles. It is also worth noting
that the system is not immune from creating bubbles,
although the method of lending makes it harder for
investors to pile in through debt. A conflict between
its religious goals and the goal of turning a profit
is another tension, The Economist notes.
Nevertheless, it is booming. High oil prices have
filled the coffers of Gulf states, and the region
is crammed with capital works projects in need of
funding. Muslims account for 20 per cent of the
world's population, but Islamic finance makes up
less than 1 per cent of world capital, suggesting
huge room for growth.
The Islamic bond market has tapered off in the credit
crunch, but this appears to be a blip. About $US14
billion in Islamic bonds were issued in the eight
months to August, down from $US23 billion in the same
time last year, but Standard & Poor's expects issuance
to hit $US25 billion next year.
This potential has not crept past Western banks unnoticed,
and many have fast-growing sharia-compliant arms.
London is vying to capture the market and has changed
its laws to allow the different property transfers
required for the lending. British media report growing
interest even among non-Muslims because of perceptions
that it is a more ethical approach to finance.
So expect to see more Islamic banks in years ahead as
global banks try to cash in on this growing field.
Given the present financial mess, the industry's
resilience only makes it harder to ignore."
---------

"Ohhhhh Say can you see
By the dawns early light
The markets in panic
and Republicans take flight! "

---------


"The Fundamentals of our Economy remain Strong" - John McSame,
Republican Candidate for the Presidency of the Derivative Ravaged,
Crisis torn, Economic Basket Case, The USSA!

http://www.geocities.com/townsville_taliban/endoscope.html


---------
B J Foster
2008-10-13 13:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by fasgnadh
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
"A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"
- http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html
"Islamic finance rides the storm"???
Post by fasgnadh
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
"The most despised of men before God is he who
sits and begs. ...
The best men are they that earn a livelihood by their
calling and spend upon themselves and upon their
kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds."
- Baha'u'llah
Are you aware that Bahai has SFA to do with Islam?
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAAAA!
That's like saying 'What does Jesus have to do with Judaism!?"
"Throughout the history of the Faith, the Bahá’ís of Iran have been
persecuted. In the mid-1800s, some 20,000 followers were killed by the
authorities or by mobs, who viewed the infant movement as *heretical* to
Islam".

'Islamic finance rides the storm' ??? ROTFL


"In 1955, the government oversaw the demolition of the Bahá’í national
center in Tehran with pickaxes".
http://www.bahai.org/dir/worldwide/persecution

'Islamic finance', eh???
Post by fasgnadh
The Bahá'í faith began in Peria in 1842 with the Bab, (the Gate),
Siyyid `Alí Muhammad-i-Shírází...
(yawn)
Post by fasgnadh
Do you even know what 'Siyyid' means? It's a title given to the
DESCENDANTS (through the male line) of the Prophet Mohammed! B^D
('Mirza' denotes a descendant through the mother)
SFA to do with Islam!? B^D
(flush)
fasgnadh
2008-10-13 20:42:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
"A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"
- http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html
"Islamic finance rides the storm"???
It is not my fault if you cannot see the link. B^)

It appears you didn't even READ the article about the
astonishing robustness of Islamic Finance in the midst
of American Capitalism's collapse, as you certainly
made no intelligent comment on the matter!

I could have quoted "Hearts to God and Hands to Work",
a Quaker proverb the Bahai's and the Muslims would
understand, along with other Christian, Daoist, Jewish,
Hindu and Zoroasterians .. as SHARED values... 8^o

According to you, " Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam?"

But according to the Baha'i themselves, their Sacred Text,
"The Hidden Words" is the words of comfort given to Kadija
by Allah when the Prophet Mohammed died!

No link!? B^D

So, I could have used the Quaker Proverb, "Hearts to God,
and Hands To Work" as the preface to an interesting article
how sound and prudent Islamic Finance was weathering the storm
in Capitalism.. but you would have just demonstrated
your ignorance by petulantly insisting "Christianity has SFA
to do with Islam"

Your considerable ignorance about EVERYTHING must be a great burden.




You know what sort of person snips the explanation and then
repeats the question, (which has ALREADY been anticipated,
AND addressed?)

A Fool.
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
"The most despised of men before God is he who
sits and begs. ...
The best men are they that earn a livelihood by their
calling and spend upon themselves and upon their
kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds."
- Baha'u'llah
Are you aware that Bahai has SFA to do with Islam?
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAAAA!
That's like saying 'What does Jesus have to do with Judaism!?"
The Bahá'í faith began in Peria in 1842 with the Bab, (the Gate),
Siyyid `Alí Muhammad-i-Shírází...
Do you even know what 'Siyyid' means?
I guess that was a 'No', eh? B^P
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
It's a title given to the
DESCENDANTS (through the male line) of the Prophet Mohammed! B^D
('Mirza' denotes a descendant through the mother)
SFA to do with Islam!? B^D
"Bahá'ís believe that Siyyid `Alí Muhammad-i-Shírází, known as
the Báb (1819-1850), is the promised Twelfth Imam, the Mahdi"
i.e the fulfillment of Shí`a prophesy!!! B^D
"Are you aware that Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam?" - BJ B^D

Except that their foundation figure claims to be their PROPHET! ;-)

Can you define 'SFA' to us? B^D
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Do you know who the Shí`a are? B^D
"Are you aware that Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam?" - BJ B^D

Shi'a and Sunni are the two major branches of Islam.

They frequently fight.. one persecuting the other...
according to your post, this means they have SFA to do with each
other! B^D

Oh, Apart from ALLAH, the Five Pillars, Ramadan, Being MUSLIM..

BWAAAAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA!
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Do you know what an Imam is?
"Are you aware that Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam?" - BJ B^D
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Can you Google 'Mahdi'? B^D How about 'CLUELESS'?
Do you have the REMOTEST idea what you are talking about????
SFA to do with Islam!? B^D
The Bab, proclaimed the coming of "The Promised One of all Ages",
who would UNITE the worlds religions.. (do you think that might
include Islam, BJ?? B^)
No answer BJ? Mahdi got your tongue?
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Have you ever met a Bahai...?
Clearly not.

Seen them fast?

Do Daily obligatory prayer?

Remind you of anyone? B^D
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Bahá'u'lláh
Literally "The Glory of Allah"
is any of this ringing bells with you? ;-)
"Are you aware that Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam?" - BJ B^D


Here is one of Bahá'u'lláh's sons, Abdul Baha...

http://www.myimagehosting.com/9380MMDh5-76491.pic

...seated in front of the Ottoman Empire representatives
as the British presented him with a knighthood for his
services to the Palestinians!!!!!

What???? Exiled by the Muslims to Akka, a pestilential
prison city, after all those 20,000 Babi's were martyred by
Muslims in Persia, and within a few years he is so
HELPFUL to the MUSLIM Palestinians that the British
recognise his efforts with a Knighthood..(a title
he never used)

I can see how the Baha'i have SFA to do with Islam, BJ! B^D
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
is any of this ringing bells with you? ;-)
Born Mírzá H.usayn-`Alí Nuri (remember what "Mirza" means..?
8^o another descendant of the Prophet Mohammed!
What religion would that be, BJ?
"Are you aware that Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam?" - BJ B^D
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
"Bahá'u'lláh's father, Mírzá Buzurg, served as vizier to Imám-Virdi
Mírzá, the twelfth son of Fat?h Ali Shah Qajar. Mírzá Buzurg was later
appointed governor of Burujird and Lorestan,
The Babi's and the Persian Bahá'ís WERE MUSLIMS.. they bear
the same relation to Islam as Early followers of Christianity
did to Judaism.. (i.e. they were JEWS! B^)
"Are you aware that Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam?" - BJ B^D

"Are you aware that Christianity has SFA to do with Judaism?" ;-)

LAUGHABLE CLAPTRAP! B^D

"But didn't Christians persecute Jews?"

At times.. SO? Does that mean they have NO CONNECTION? B^D

How does that make it true that "Christianity has SFA to
do with Judaism"??? Did civil war mean the confederate
States "had SFA to do with" the Union? B^p

It's not a 'NON-LINK'.. it's a NEGATIVE LINK.

One more link to ADD to all the positive ones! B^)
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Just as Christianity 'grows out of' Judaism, is both a DISTINCT
and SEPARATE new religion, but intrinsically linked to and
interwoven with Judaism (containing the Jewish scripture within
it's own) so
The Bahai faith 'grows out of' Islam, is both a Distinct and
SEPARATE new religion, but intrinsically linked to and
interwoven with Islam (counting the Koran, the Torah the New
Testament.. among it's own scriptures.
"Are you aware that Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam?" - BJ B^D
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Finally.. as Christians claim to be the fulfillment of Jewish
prophesy (no matter that the Jews disagree) the Bahá'í faith
claims to be the fulfillment of the prophesies of Islam and
Christianity! 8^o
It's a bit hard to pretend there is no connection..
But that was BJ's claim that there is NO connection,
positive, or NEGATIVE!
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
But I'm sure you will continue to try..
"Are you aware that Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam?" - BJ

What.. no familial ties? No shared Scriptures?
No Siyyid, Mirza, Imam ...Mahdi!
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Your ability to deny reality is unsurpassed in Usenet.
He can't really maintain that idiotic fiction anymore,
after so many historical links, Bahai's who were Muslims
and interweaving scripture and beliefs.

So instead of disputing any of those links, he will
raise one more link, but a NEGATIVE one, which I have already
anticipated.. and is after all.. not a proof that
"Bahai has SFA to do with Islam?" B^)
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Oh, before you post about the fierce persecution of the
Bahá'í in Iran, Google my posts on the subject..
He just doesn't listen;
Post by B J Foster
"Throughout the history of the Faith, the Bahá’ís of Iran have been
persecuted. In the mid-1800s, some 20,000 followers were killed by the
authorities or by mobs, who viewed the infant movement as *heretical* > to Islam".
You really should listen to those who have been discussing
the persecution of the Baha'i since before you could spell it:

# Subject: Re: Why doesn't anyone speak out against Baha'i
# persecution in Iran? A: They Do
# Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 18:01:40 +1000
# From: fasgnadh <***@yahoo.com>
# Message-ID: <4848eedf$0$17507$***@news.optusnet.com.au>
#
# Just as I have defended Islam against anti-Muslim bigots.
# I have defended women persecuted by the Taliban and the Bahá'í
# who are persecuted in Iran.


You see, the fact that Jews rejected Christ, does not mean
that "Christianity has SFA to do with Judaism" does it?

And the fact that Muslims rejected Bahai's does not negate
all their links, including the acceptance of Islam and Muslims
by Bahai's! 8^o

Perhaps what you meant to say is that some Muslims don't like
Bahais, but the reverse is not true.
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
then reflect upon the response of Judaism to the Messiah
on First Advent.
reflection, or thinking of any kind, is not BJ's forte.

Christ was CRUCIFIED for claiming to be Messiah!

Do you really believe that meant he had no connection with Judaism?

au contraire.. he was the fulfillment of OT prophesy,
you cannot begin to understand one without the other.
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Or I could introduce you to my Persian friends, especially
the elderly woman who survived torture in Tehran,
and now invites the local Muslim students at Monash for dinner..
# Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 12:43:14 +1000
^^^^^^^^
# From: fasgnadh <***@yahoo.com>
# Message-ID: <46467b36$0$28584$***@news.optusnet.com.au>
#
# people of good faith in all religions share these values,
# and that such affection and respect, the foundation of a
# civilized society, belongs to other peoples mothers as well
# as our own, never to be beaten with sticks by the Taliban,
# or tortured by the Iranian Mullahs because they are Bahai.


# But my favourite Bahai story is about a little old Persian
# grandmother, a dear friend of mine, who was tortured in Iran,
# and taught me that to blame all Muslims, or the Koran, for her
# suffering would be a childish mistake:
#
# Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 16:44:39 +1100
# From: fasgnadh <***@yahoo.com>
# aus.politics,aus.religion.islam,aus.religion,aus.culture.true-blue
# Subject: Re: A positive Christmas Message from Islam
# Message-ID: <476f4745$0$4007$***@news.optusnet.com.au>
#
# I have posts in the Usenet archives about the torture of
# my friend in the dungeons of Teheran which would make your hair
# stand on end! They told her all she had to do was renounce
# her faith and declare herself a Muslim, and she could go free.
#
# 11 of her companions in jail were executed.
#
# Do you blathering Idiots think you have anything to tell me,
# or her, about the Iranian mullahs? Her people have been
# persecuted in Iran since it was Persia! They are banned from
# government employment, their children cannot enter university
# they are tortured and killed.
#
# And, here is the difference between that woman, a woman of true
# faith, and you rabid dogs... she invites Muslim Uni students
# who live in her block of flats, in for dinner.
#
# She hobbles about on feet still broken from the bastinado
# and serves them tea and Persian sweets.
#
# She wins them over with her genuine warmth and affection. B^D
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
no one passes up Persian cooking! B^D
SFA to do with Islam? B^D
"Ye are all the leaves of one tree, and the Drops of One Ocean".
It includes the Koran (and the Bible) as sacred Texts
You can't separate what is simply expressions of the One God.
Post by B J Foster
FUSA
You poor pathetic obsessive.. I show how discredited your
doctrinaire ideology is and how far removed from reality
your Utopian theories are, and you follow me around
seeking revenge by shooting yourself in the foot again
and again!
In this, a substantial piece about ISLAMIC FINANCE, you
again ignore EVERY SIGNIFICANT AND RELEVANT ISSUE and instead
pursue your ridiculous, petty and ABSURDLY FLAWED vendetta!
B^D
Will you EVER learn?
Tell us about how Capitalism was 'defined' in 1964 by
Ayn Rand "the person who basically defined capitalism"
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHA
Centuries AFTER it's formation!!!!! B^D
Tell us about how Astrology is as relevant as Political
Party in answering the question
" BTW, does anyone have a list of the Congressmen who voted
against the bill the first time and for it after regaining
their sanity? I have the final vote.. but who switched? "
That was the issue being discussed when BlowJob gave us his
sage advice about astrology and was mocked mightily and with
considerable wit.. now the pathetic little hypocrite,
forger and liar is SOOKING and complaining that someone
OTHER THAN HIM, couldn't take a joke!
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAAAAAA
Or will you just FORGE your words as mine and then
argue with yourself?
Could you have a 'finite probability' of winning, even then?
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
"Islamic finance rides the storm"
The Age 11/10/2008
"A thriving financial sector sounds like an oxymoron
these days. Even Australia's banks - among the most
profitable in the world - kept a fifth of this week's
interest rate cut to cushion their margins. But there
is one sector that has tongues wagging in the hubs of
commerce: Islamic finance.
While the Western world's financial system has been
imploding, this small but rapidly growing share of
world capital has weathered the storm.
Sharemarkets in London and New York are a third off
their peaks. Dow Jones's Islamic financials index,
in contrast, rose 4.75 per cent in the most recent
September quarter and lost a modest 7 per cent in
the previous year.
Not only has the industry been resilient; it's also on
the cusp of serious expansion. It is growing faster
than any other subset of world banking, at 15 to 20 per
cent a year. The Economist estimates Islamic assets
under management are worth $US700 billion ($1000 billion).
This figure could hit $US1 trillion - about the
Australian sharemarket's current value - by 2010.
What's more, all this growth has come from a model of
lending that rejects interest payments and shuns
speculation and heavy borrowing."
Halleluja!
Speculation has been ruinous in the West.
Greed has been the foundation of enormous disparities
in economic wellbeing, economic injustice, and instability.
"In short, Islamic finance bans some of the excess that
has brought the West's financial system to its knees,
and is looking wise indeed, or at least lucky.
Islamic finance takes its guidance from sharia.
The biggest markets are in the Middle East and Muslim
countries, but global banks have opened sharia-compliant
branches. Locally, the Muslim Community Co-operative
is one of a few lenders offering the service.
Justice, partnership and opposition to excessive risk
are the main principles guiding Islamic banks."
Say that again.
"Outright speculation and dealing with any party that
has a balance sheet more than a third of which is debt
are forbidden, as are investments deemed unethical by
Islamic scholars, such as casinos.
But if these rules sound tough, the biggest difference
is a ban on interest.
Charging interest is immoral because it does not take
into account how changes in the value of the loan's
security can affect the borrower, sharia says. Home
owners who bought near the peak are now experiencing
this harsh reality: interest gives banks a steady payment
from the borrower, regardless of the property market's state.
However, profit is fine, and Islamic banks have devised
ways to make money from lending. Instead of demanding
interest, they buy the asset outright on behalf of the
borrower. The borrower pays off the loan (the principle)
and a fee for using the asset (rent, for example) until
the amount is repaid and ownership transfers to the borrower.
Just like mortgage-backed securities, the rights to loan
repayments can be sold as an Islamic bond, or sukuk.
But instead of a yield, the bondholder receives repayments
on the loan, and some rent. As a result, Islamic lenders
have not had to venture into money markets that have
recently blown up.
For depositors, putting your money with an Islamic bank
is more like being a shareholder. Rather than interest,
depositors get a cut of any profits.
Understandably, Western governments are casting around for
ideas on how to run a more robust financial system. But
what could they possibly learn from such a different approach?
Islamic finance's more prudent rules on debt look attractive
in hindsight. But more fundamentally, proponents say it
provides a better way to link the financial system to
the "real" economy.
Because Islamic banks keep ownership of the asset until
the loan is repaid, they have a greater incentive to make
sure borrowers do not bite off more than they can chew.
The bank shares in the risks of the entrepreneur but also
its failures, the argument goes.
I am not suggesting we switch to a lending system without
interest payments. But a big gripe emerging in recent
weeks is that finance has become out of whack with the
needs of the rest of the economy.
In the most extreme cases, it seems investment bankers
devoted themselves to developing inventive ways to get
higher bonuses rather than facilitating productive
investment. Islamic finance shows one way of ensuring
savings are put to more useful ends.
Some even say banning short selling of shares reflects
sharia thinking, because it stops traders dealing with
assets they don't own. "Banning short selling is one
of the decisive elements in Islamic finance, so it
seems almost that the conventional markets are looking
at the Islamic techniques, which so far did not play
any role in conventional markets," a financial journalist
from Dubai, Gerard Al-Fil, told ABC radio last month.
Sceptics say Islamic finance just dresses up Western
finance with different titles. It is also worth noting
that the system is not immune from creating bubbles,
although the method of lending makes it harder for
investors to pile in through debt. A conflict between
its religious goals and the goal of turning a profit
is another tension, The Economist notes.
Nevertheless, it is booming. High oil prices have
filled the coffers of Gulf states, and the region
is crammed with capital works projects in need of
funding. Muslims account for 20 per cent of the
world's population, but Islamic finance makes up
less than 1 per cent of world capital, suggesting
huge room for growth.
The Islamic bond market has tapered off in the credit
crunch, but this appears to be a blip. About $US14
billion in Islamic bonds were issued in the eight
months to August, down from $US23 billion in the same
time last year, but Standard & Poor's expects issuance
to hit $US25 billion next year.
This potential has not crept past Western banks unnoticed,
and many have fast-growing sharia-compliant arms.
London is vying to capture the market and has changed
its laws to allow the different property transfers
required for the lending. British media report growing
interest even among non-Muslims because of perceptions
that it is a more ethical approach to finance.
So expect to see more Islamic banks in years ahead as
global banks try to cash in on this growing field.
Given the present financial mess, the industry's
resilience only makes it harder to ignore."
'Islamic finance', eh???
What about it?

You made not a single rational comment about Islamic finance

If you read the article you didn't understand it!



---------

"Ohhhhh Say can you see
By the dawns early light
The markets in panic
and Republicans take flight! "

---------


"The Fundamentals of our Economy remain Strong" - John McSame,
Republican Candidate for the Presidency of the Derivative Ravaged,
Crisis torn, Economic Basket Case, The USSA!

http://www.geocities.com/townsville_taliban/endoscope.html


---------
TomTom
2008-10-13 21:11:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by fasgnadh
--
A Fool.
Highly appropriate sig for you.
B J Foster
2008-10-13 21:16:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by fasgnadh
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
"A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"
- http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html
"Islamic finance rides the storm"???
It is not my fault if you cannot see the link. B^)
"the basis of prosperity is still individual effort, hard work and
independence".
From the 10th principle, ...
Post by fasgnadh
It appears you didn't even READ the article about the
astonishing robustness of Islamic Finance in the midst
of American Capitalism's collapse, as you certainly
made no intelligent comment on the matter!
You quoted the Baha'u'llah, you twit.

The Bahai philosophy is completely different:
"the basis of prosperity is still *individual* effort, hard work and
independence".

Sounds like capitalism, durrenit. ROTFL.
Post by fasgnadh
I could have quoted "Hearts to God and Hands to Work",
a Quaker proverb the Bahai's and the Muslims would
understand, along with other Christian, Daoist, Jewish,
Hindu and Zoroasterians .. as SHARED values... 8^o
There isn't lot of air between you and those racist bigots with your
wholesale, gross generalisation. What does the Bahai philosophy have in
common with Islam, twit?

Are you aware that this is a completely different religion?

Islamic finance indeed.
Post by fasgnadh
According to you, " Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam?"
But according to the Baha'i themselves, their Sacred Text,
"The Hidden Words" is the words of comfort given to Kadija
by Allah when the Prophet Mohammed died!
No link!? B^D
So, I could have used the Quaker Proverb, "Hearts to God,
and Hands To Work" as the preface to an interesting article
how sound and prudent Islamic Finance was weathering the storm
in Capitalism.. but you would have just demonstrated
your ignorance by petulantly insisting "Christianity has SFA
to do with Islam"
Your considerable ignorance about EVERYTHING must be a great burden.
The Baha'u'llah and Andrew Carnegie were good friends and corresponded
frequently about the philosophy of wealth. Do you know who Carnegie was,
twit?

And BTW 'considerable ignorance' is an oxymoron.
(pathetic attempt at recovery ignored)
Post by fasgnadh
You know what sort of person snips the explanation and then
repeats the question, (which has ALREADY been anticipated,
AND addressed?)
A Fool.
(reams of garbage ignored)
Post by fasgnadh
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
"The most despised of men before God is he who
sits and begs. ...
The best men are they that earn a livelihood by their
calling and spend upon themselves and upon their
kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds."
- Baha'u'llah
Are you aware that Bahai has SFA to do with Islam?
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAAAA!
That's like saying 'What does Jesus have to do with Judaism!?"
The Bahá'í faith began in Peria in 1842 with the Bab, (the Gate),
Siyyid `Alí Muhammad-i-Shírází...
Do you even know what 'Siyyid' means?
I guess that was a 'No', eh? B^P
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
It's a title given to the
DESCENDANTS (through the male line) of the Prophet Mohammed! B^D
('Mirza' denotes a descendant through the mother)
SFA to do with Islam!? B^D
"Bahá'ís believe that Siyyid `Alí Muhammad-i-Shírází, known as
the Báb (1819-1850), is the promised Twelfth Imam, the Mahdi"
i.e the fulfillment of Shí`a prophesy!!! B^D
"Are you aware that Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam?" - BJ B^D
Except that their foundation figure claims to be their PROPHET! ;-)
Can you define 'SFA' to us? B^D
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Do you know who the Shí`a are? B^D
"Are you aware that Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam?" - BJ B^D
Shi'a and Sunni are the two major branches of Islam.
They frequently fight.. one persecuting the other...
according to your post, this means they have SFA to do with each
other! B^D
Oh, Apart from ALLAH, the Five Pillars, Ramadan, Being MUSLIM..
BWAAAAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA!
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Do you know what an Imam is?
"Are you aware that Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam?" - BJ B^D
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Can you Google 'Mahdi'? B^D How about 'CLUELESS'?
Do you have the REMOTEST idea what you are talking about????
SFA to do with Islam!? B^D
The Bab, proclaimed the coming of "The Promised One of all Ages",
who would UNITE the worlds religions.. (do you think that might
include Islam, BJ?? B^)
No answer BJ? Mahdi got your tongue?
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Have you ever met a Bahai...?
Clearly not.
Seen them fast?
Do Daily obligatory prayer?
Remind you of anyone? B^D
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Bahá'u'lláh
Literally "The Glory of Allah"
is any of this ringing bells with you? ;-)
"Are you aware that Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam?" - BJ B^D
Here is one of Bahá'u'lláh's sons, Abdul Baha...
http://www.myimagehosting.com/9380MMDh5-76491.pic
...seated in front of the Ottoman Empire representatives
as the British presented him with a knighthood for his
services to the Palestinians!!!!!
What???? Exiled by the Muslims to Akka, a pestilential
prison city, after all those 20,000 Babi's were martyred by
Muslims in Persia, and within a few years he is so
HELPFUL to the MUSLIM Palestinians that the British
recognise his efforts with a Knighthood..(a title
he never used)
I can see how the Baha'i have SFA to do with Islam, BJ! B^D
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
is any of this ringing bells with you? ;-)
Born Mírzá H.usayn-`Alí Nuri (remember what "Mirza" means..?
8^o another descendant of the Prophet Mohammed!
What religion would that be, BJ?
"Are you aware that Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam?" - BJ B^D
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
"Bahá'u'lláh's father, Mírzá Buzurg, served as vizier to Imám-Virdi
Mírzá, the twelfth son of Fat?h Ali Shah Qajar. Mírzá Buzurg was
later appointed governor of Burujird and Lorestan,
The Babi's and the Persian Bahá'ís WERE MUSLIMS.. they bear
the same relation to Islam as Early followers of Christianity
did to Judaism.. (i.e. they were JEWS! B^)
"Are you aware that Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam?" - BJ B^D
"Are you aware that Christianity has SFA to do with Judaism?" ;-)
LAUGHABLE CLAPTRAP! B^D
"But didn't Christians persecute Jews?"
At times.. SO? Does that mean they have NO CONNECTION? B^D
How does that make it true that "Christianity has SFA to
do with Judaism"??? Did civil war mean the confederate
States "had SFA to do with" the Union? B^p
It's not a 'NON-LINK'.. it's a NEGATIVE LINK.
One more link to ADD to all the positive ones! B^)
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Just as Christianity 'grows out of' Judaism, is both a DISTINCT
and SEPARATE new religion, but intrinsically linked to and
interwoven with Judaism (containing the Jewish scripture within
it's own) so
The Bahai faith 'grows out of' Islam, is both a Distinct and
SEPARATE new religion, but intrinsically linked to and
interwoven with Islam (counting the Koran, the Torah the New
Testament.. among it's own scriptures.
"Are you aware that Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam?" - BJ B^D
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Finally.. as Christians claim to be the fulfillment of Jewish
prophesy (no matter that the Jews disagree) the Bahá'í faith
claims to be the fulfillment of the prophesies of Islam and
Christianity! 8^o
It's a bit hard to pretend there is no connection..
But that was BJ's claim that there is NO connection,
positive, or NEGATIVE!
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
But I'm sure you will continue to try..
"Are you aware that Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam?" - BJ
What.. no familial ties? No shared Scriptures?
No Siyyid, Mirza, Imam ...Mahdi!
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Your ability to deny reality is unsurpassed in Usenet.
He can't really maintain that idiotic fiction anymore,
after so many historical links, Bahai's who were Muslims
and interweaving scripture and beliefs.
So instead of disputing any of those links, he will
raise one more link, but a NEGATIVE one, which I have already
anticipated.. and is after all.. not a proof that
"Bahai has SFA to do with Islam?" B^)
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Oh, before you post about the fierce persecution of the
Bahá'í in Iran, Google my posts on the subject..
He just doesn't listen;
Post by B J Foster
"Throughout the history of the Faith, the Bahá’ís of Iran have been
persecuted. In the mid-1800s, some 20,000 followers were killed by the
authorities or by mobs, who viewed the infant movement as *heretical*
Post by fasgnadh
to Islam".
You really should listen to those who have been discussing
# Subject: Re: Why doesn't anyone speak out against Baha'i
# persecution in Iran? A: They Do
# Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 18:01:40 +1000
#
# Just as I have defended Islam against anti-Muslim bigots.
# I have defended women persecuted by the Taliban and the Bahá'í
# who are persecuted in Iran.
You see, the fact that Jews rejected Christ, does not mean
that "Christianity has SFA to do with Judaism" does it?
And the fact that Muslims rejected Bahai's does not negate
all their links, including the acceptance of Islam and Muslims
by Bahai's! 8^o
Perhaps what you meant to say is that some Muslims don't like
Bahais, but the reverse is not true.
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
then reflect upon the response of Judaism to the Messiah
on First Advent.
reflection, or thinking of any kind, is not BJ's forte.
Christ was CRUCIFIED for claiming to be Messiah!
Do you really believe that meant he had no connection with Judaism?
au contraire.. he was the fulfillment of OT prophesy,
you cannot begin to understand one without the other.
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Or I could introduce you to my Persian friends, especially
the elderly woman who survived torture in Tehran,
and now invites the local Muslim students at Monash for dinner..
# Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 12:43:14 +1000
^^^^^^^^
#
# people of good faith in all religions share these values,
# and that such affection and respect, the foundation of a
# civilized society, belongs to other peoples mothers as well
# as our own, never to be beaten with sticks by the Taliban,
# or tortured by the Iranian Mullahs because they are Bahai.
# But my favourite Bahai story is about a little old Persian
# grandmother, a dear friend of mine, who was tortured in Iran,
# and taught me that to blame all Muslims, or the Koran, for her
#
# Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 16:44:39 +1100
# aus.politics,aus.religion.islam,aus.religion,aus.culture.true-blue
# Subject: Re: A positive Christmas Message from Islam
#
# I have posts in the Usenet archives about the torture of
# my friend in the dungeons of Teheran which would make your hair
# stand on end! They told her all she had to do was renounce
# her faith and declare herself a Muslim, and she could go free.
#
# 11 of her companions in jail were executed.
#
# Do you blathering Idiots think you have anything to tell me,
# or her, about the Iranian mullahs? Her people have been
# persecuted in Iran since it was Persia! They are banned from
# government employment, their children cannot enter university
# they are tortured and killed.
#
# And, here is the difference between that woman, a woman of true
# faith, and you rabid dogs... she invites Muslim Uni students
# who live in her block of flats, in for dinner.
#
# She hobbles about on feet still broken from the bastinado
# and serves them tea and Persian sweets.
#
# She wins them over with her genuine warmth and affection. B^D
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
no one passes up Persian cooking! B^D
SFA to do with Islam? B^D
"Ye are all the leaves of one tree, and the Drops of One Ocean".
It includes the Koran (and the Bible) as sacred Texts
You can't separate what is simply expressions of the One God.
Post by B J Foster
FUSA
You poor pathetic obsessive.. I show how discredited your
doctrinaire ideology is and how far removed from reality
your Utopian theories are, and you follow me around
seeking revenge by shooting yourself in the foot again
and again!
In this, a substantial piece about ISLAMIC FINANCE, you
again ignore EVERY SIGNIFICANT AND RELEVANT ISSUE and instead
pursue your ridiculous, petty and ABSURDLY FLAWED vendetta!
B^D
Will you EVER learn?
Tell us about how Capitalism was 'defined' in 1964 by
Ayn Rand "the person who basically defined capitalism"
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHA
Centuries AFTER it's formation!!!!! B^D
Tell us about how Astrology is as relevant as Political
Party in answering the question
" BTW, does anyone have a list of the Congressmen who voted
against the bill the first time and for it after regaining
their sanity? I have the final vote.. but who switched? "
That was the issue being discussed when BlowJob gave us his
sage advice about astrology and was mocked mightily and with
considerable wit.. now the pathetic little hypocrite,
forger and liar is SOOKING and complaining that someone
OTHER THAN HIM, couldn't take a joke!
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAAAAAA
Or will you just FORGE your words as mine and then
argue with yourself?
Could you have a 'finite probability' of winning, even then?
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
"Islamic finance rides the storm"
The Age 11/10/2008
"A thriving financial sector sounds like an oxymoron
these days. Even Australia's banks - among the most
profitable in the world - kept a fifth of this week's
interest rate cut to cushion their margins. But there
is one sector that has tongues wagging in the hubs of
commerce: Islamic finance.
While the Western world's financial system has been
imploding, this small but rapidly growing share of
world capital has weathered the storm.
Sharemarkets in London and New York are a third off
their peaks. Dow Jones's Islamic financials index,
in contrast, rose 4.75 per cent in the most recent
September quarter and lost a modest 7 per cent in
the previous year.
Not only has the industry been resilient; it's also on
the cusp of serious expansion. It is growing faster
than any other subset of world banking, at 15 to 20 per
cent a year. The Economist estimates Islamic assets
under management are worth $US700 billion ($1000 billion).
This figure could hit $US1 trillion - about the
Australian sharemarket's current value - by 2010.
What's more, all this growth has come from a model of
lending that rejects interest payments and shuns
speculation and heavy borrowing."
Halleluja!
Speculation has been ruinous in the West.
Greed has been the foundation of enormous disparities
in economic wellbeing, economic injustice, and instability.
"In short, Islamic finance bans some of the excess that
has brought the West's financial system to its knees,
and is looking wise indeed, or at least lucky.
Islamic finance takes its guidance from sharia.
The biggest markets are in the Middle East and Muslim
countries, but global banks have opened sharia-compliant
branches. Locally, the Muslim Community Co-operative
is one of a few lenders offering the service.
Justice, partnership and opposition to excessive risk
are the main principles guiding Islamic banks."
Say that again.
"Outright speculation and dealing with any party that
has a balance sheet more than a third of which is debt
are forbidden, as are investments deemed unethical by
Islamic scholars, such as casinos.
But if these rules sound tough, the biggest difference
is a ban on interest.
Charging interest is immoral because it does not take
into account how changes in the value of the loan's
security can affect the borrower, sharia says. Home
owners who bought near the peak are now experiencing
this harsh reality: interest gives banks a steady payment
from the borrower, regardless of the property market's state.
However, profit is fine, and Islamic banks have devised
ways to make money from lending. Instead of demanding
interest, they buy the asset outright on behalf of the
borrower. The borrower pays off the loan (the principle)
and a fee for using the asset (rent, for example) until
the amount is repaid and ownership transfers to the borrower.
Just like mortgage-backed securities, the rights to loan
repayments can be sold as an Islamic bond, or sukuk.
But instead of a yield, the bondholder receives repayments
on the loan, and some rent. As a result, Islamic lenders
have not had to venture into money markets that have
recently blown up.
For depositors, putting your money with an Islamic bank
is more like being a shareholder. Rather than interest,
depositors get a cut of any profits.
Understandably, Western governments are casting around for
ideas on how to run a more robust financial system. But
what could they possibly learn from such a different approach?
Islamic finance's more prudent rules on debt look attractive
in hindsight. But more fundamentally, proponents say it
provides a better way to link the financial system to
the "real" economy.
Because Islamic banks keep ownership of the asset until
the loan is repaid, they have a greater incentive to make
sure borrowers do not bite off more than they can chew.
The bank shares in the risks of the entrepreneur but also
its failures, the argument goes.
I am not suggesting we switch to a lending system without
interest payments. But a big gripe emerging in recent
weeks is that finance has become out of whack with the
needs of the rest of the economy.
In the most extreme cases, it seems investment bankers
devoted themselves to developing inventive ways to get
higher bonuses rather than facilitating productive
investment. Islamic finance shows one way of ensuring
savings are put to more useful ends.
Some even say banning short selling of shares reflects
sharia thinking, because it stops traders dealing with
assets they don't own. "Banning short selling is one
of the decisive elements in Islamic finance, so it
seems almost that the conventional markets are looking
at the Islamic techniques, which so far did not play
any role in conventional markets," a financial journalist
from Dubai, Gerard Al-Fil, told ABC radio last month.
Sceptics say Islamic finance just dresses up Western
finance with different titles. It is also worth noting
that the system is not immune from creating bubbles,
although the method of lending makes it harder for
investors to pile in through debt. A conflict between
its religious goals and the goal of turning a profit
is another tension, The Economist notes.
Nevertheless, it is booming. High oil prices have
filled the coffers of Gulf states, and the region
is crammed with capital works projects in need of
funding. Muslims account for 20 per cent of the
world's population, but Islamic finance makes up
less than 1 per cent of world capital, suggesting
huge room for growth.
The Islamic bond market has tapered off in the credit
crunch, but this appears to be a blip. About $US14
billion in Islamic bonds were issued in the eight
months to August, down from $US23 billion in the same
time last year, but Standard & Poor's expects issuance
to hit $US25 billion next year.
This potential has not crept past Western banks unnoticed,
and many have fast-growing sharia-compliant arms.
London is vying to capture the market and has changed
its laws to allow the different property transfers
required for the lending. British media report growing
interest even among non-Muslims because of perceptions
that it is a more ethical approach to finance.
So expect to see more Islamic banks in years ahead as
global banks try to cash in on this growing field.
Given the present financial mess, the industry's
resilience only makes it harder to ignore."
'Islamic finance', eh???
What about it?
You made not a single rational comment about Islamic finance
If you read the article you didn't understand it!
---------
"Ohhhhh Say can you see
By the dawns early light
The markets in panic
and Republicans take flight! "
---------
"The Fundamentals of our Economy remain Strong" - John McSame,
Republican Candidate for the Presidency of the Derivative Ravaged,
Crisis torn, Economic Basket Case, The USSA!
http://www.geocities.com/townsville_taliban/endoscope.html
---------
fasgnadh
2008-10-14 21:01:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Post by B J Foster
B J Foster reset the Reply-to to alt.fuckwits.. PomPom's
Post by fasgnadh
"A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"
- http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html
"Islamic finance rides the storm"???
It is not my fault if you cannot see the link. B^)
"the basis of prosperity is still individual effort, hard work and
independence".
From the 10th principle, ...
So you think there is a VAST difference between The Spiritual
Principles applied to Economics by the Baha'i (and by Islam ;-)
on the one hand, and American State Socialism, as implemented
by the Bush Administration in their MAD PANIC to escape the
Catastrophic Consequences of your Flakey Friedmanite Folly;

"Bush launches $250 Billion Nationalization of US Banks!"
- Final Friedmanite FAILURE!

Why have the dedicated Friedmanites, who are SO OPPOSED
to intervention in the Free Market decided to adopt
Socialism?? TO SAVE CAPITALISM IN IT's DIRE CRISIS;

"These measures are not intended to take over the Free Market
but to preserve it" - George Bush 14/10/2008
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
It appears you didn't even READ the article about the
astonishing robustness of Islamic Finance in the midst
of American Capitalism's collapse, as you certainly
made no intelligent comment on the matter!
"the basis of prosperity is still *individual* effort, hard work and
independence".
regulated by adherence to Divine Laws.. B^)

Just like Islam! and Christianity and Judaism! B^)

It is a balanced (Mixed economy ;-) approach.. like mine:

The religious don't think Money is evil, but
"The LOVE of money is the ROOT OF ALL EVIL"
- A Judeao-Christian expression shared by Islam and Baha'i!

You don't get, just like you don't get it in SECULAR
economics, ..that Individual human behaviour is the ENGINE
of all civilizations.. but for the Bahai, the Christians,
the Muslims, Jews etc it is CONSTRAINED by God's rules for
right living..
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
REGULATION<< By God, and VOLUNTARILY ACCEPTED!!!!!
"There can be no compulsion in Religion" - Baha'i


Those are the things you, and Fundy Friedmanites, IGNORE!

That is why your GREED has CHOKED you, to the point of death,
and a Socialist Surgery has ripped your throat open in the
hope that you might start BREATHING again.

Good Luck! B^D
Post by B J Foster
Sounds like capitalism, durrenit. ROTFL.
No, Capitalism is all about Socialist Bailouts!

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHA!

The Article about the robust state of Islamic finances,
contrasts with the Flakey, Anarchic, EXTREMIST individualism
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
I could have quoted "Hearts to God and Hands to Work",
a Quaker proverb the Bahai's and the Muslims would
understand, along with other Christian, Daoist, Jewish,
Hindu and Zoroasterians .. as SHARED values... 8^o
But Wisdom from Diverse sources that have a lot in common is
wasted on a Blind Doctrinaire ideologue like you.
Post by B J Foster
What does the Bahai philosophy have in
common with Islam,
Just the FUNDAMENTALS of Faith; 8^)

La illaha illa allah - "There is no God but God"

And everything which flows from that.

Even the full form of the Daily statement of CORE BELIEF
in Islam is accepted by the Baha'i as ABSOLUTELY TRUE;

There is no God but God, and Mohammed is his Prophet" 8^)

You don't get any more 'IN COMMON" than that!!

You see, the Baha'i believe all the worlds major religions are
inspired by God.. in one long, evolutionary REVELATION!

Thus they believe, as all Muslims do, that the Koran IS the sacred
word of God! AND they believe the same of the Torah AND the New Testament.

The Baha'i faith IS, LITERALLY..

THAT WHICH IS IN COMMON WITH ALL FAITHS..

All the central teachings are, to the Baha'i perspective, SHARED.


The Bahia's faith, as Jesus said OF HIMSELF, comes not
to "Change the Law, but to FULFILL IT"

8^o Thus the Baha'i faith claims to be the FULFILLMENT of Islam

I told you all this already when I pointed out that "the Bab"
is held by Baha'i to be the Mahdi, the Hidden Imam expected
to return by the Shia Muslims.

You do know who the Shia are, don't you, BJ?



You have no where left to stand on this one BJ.




You were on firmer sand with your Ayn Rand slogan chanting! B^D

But mindless ideology never stands for long,
the Word of God lasts forever.



No point leaving all the wisdom you simply can't grasp..<snip>


Shalom and Salaam.


---------

"Ohhhhh Say can you see
By the dawns early light
The markets in panic
and Republicans take flight! "

---------


"The Fundamentals of our Economy remain Strong" - John McSame,
Republican Candidate for the Presidency of the Derivative Ravaged,
Crisis torn, Economic Basket Case, The USSA!

http://www.geocities.com/townsville_taliban/endoscope.html


---------
B J Foster
2008-10-14 21:09:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by fasgnadh
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Post by B J Foster
B J Foster reset the Reply-to to alt.fuckwits.. PomPom's
Post by fasgnadh
"A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"
- http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html
"Islamic finance rides the storm"???
It is not my fault if you cannot see the link. B^)
"the basis of prosperity is still individual effort, hard work and
independence".
From the 10th principle, ...
So you think there is a VAST difference between The Spiritual
Principles applied to Economics by the Baha'i (and by Islam ;-)
on the one hand, and American State Socialism, as implemented
by the Bush Administration in their MAD PANIC to escape the
Catastrophic Consequences of your Flakey Friedmanite Folly;
I didn't say or think any such thing.

So you think that the Bahai 10th principle WHICH YOU QUOTED under the
headline "Islamic Finance Rides the Storm" reflects Islamic dogma?
<self-aggrandising spam and interjections deleted>
Post by fasgnadh
Post by B J Foster
"the basis of prosperity is still *individual* effort, hard work and
independence".
Sounds like capitalism, durrenit. ROTFL.
What does the Bahai philosophy have in common with Islam,
To quote an abject idiot:
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
fasgnadh
2008-10-16 07:09:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
B J Foster reset the Reply-to to alt.fuckwits.. PomPom's
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
"A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"
- http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html
"The most despised of men before God is he who
sits and begs. ...
The best men are they that earn a livelihood by their
calling and spend upon themselves and upon their
kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds."
- Baha'u'llah
Nowhere have I claimed that The Bahai faith and Islam are identical.

What I posted was an article which shows as the title in the Age said;

"Islamic finance rides the storm", and prefaced it with a view from the
Bahai faith which speaks of "a Spiritual Solution to the Economic
Problems" which are clearly besetting the West.

That does not mean that Islamic Finance IS that solution, merely
that it is one example of Finance based not upon Greed but upon
other principles. Just as the Protestant work ethic and Honesty,
Trust and Prudence in Banking were once CHRISTIAN spiritual values
which found expression in the Economy.. but appear to no longer do so.

However, what BJ has claimed is that there is NO significant link
and that the Bahai faith and Islam have nothing in common,
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Are you aware that Bahai has SFA to do with Islam?
I will repeat some of the simple facts which show the absurdity
of that position, and Bj can snip and pretend they don't exist again;

Baha'u'llah writes in praise of Mohammed in the Kitab-i-Iqan
(the Book of Certitude);

"The following is an evidence of the sovereignty
exercised by Muḥammad, the Day-star of Truth.
Hast thou not heard how with one single verse He hath
sundered light from darkness, the righteous from the ungodly,
and the believing from the infidel?"

"Behold, how many are the Sovereigns who bow the knee
before His name! How numerous the nations and kingdoms
who have sought the shelter of His shadow, who bear
allegiance to His Faith, and pride themselves therein!"

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-1.html

"As to Muhammad, the Apostle of God, let none among His followers who
read these pages, think for a moment that Islam, or its Prophet, or His
Book, or His appointed Successors, or any of His authentic teachings,
have been, or are to be in any way, or to however slight a degree,
disparaged." - Shoghi Effendi, Guardian of the Baha'i Faith

"The fundamental principle enunciated by Bahá'u'lláh,
the followers of His Faith firmly believe, is that
religious truth is not absolute but relative, that
Divine Revelation is a continuous and progressive process,
that all the great religions of the world are divine in
origin, that their basic principles are in complete harmony,
that their aims and purposes are one and the same, that
their teachings are but facets of one truth, that their
functions are complementary, that they differ only in
the nonessential aspects of their doctrines, and that
their missions represent successive stages in the spiritual
evolution of human society."

- Shoghi Effendi "The Faith of Bahá'u'lláh"
in World Order, Vol. 7, No. 2 (1972-73), p.7.
But the Bahai's clearly state "all the great religions
of the world are divine in origin, that their basic
principles are in complete harmony, that their aims
and purposes are one and the same, that their teachings
are but facets of one truth, that their functions are
complementary, that they differ only in
the nonessential aspects of their doctrines"

To the Bahai, Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Bahai Faith
"represent successive stages in the spiritual evolution of
human society."

That is SOME LINK! B^D

It is clear that, as with your opponents, you seek forgery,
to misrepresent YOUR view as theirs!

To do this, you repeatedly ignore all the words of the
Bahai's themselves and assert one tiny snippet,
and attribute your view that it alone represents
an unbridgeable gulf between Islam and the Bahai..
when clearly BOTH function in the world of economics;
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
"the basis of prosperity is still *individual* effort, hard work and
independence".
"The origins of capitalism and free markets can be traced back to the
Caliphate" - The Cambridge economic history of Europe, p. 437.
Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0521087090.

" where the first market economy and earliest forms of merchant
Capitalism took root between the 8th–12th centuries, which some
refer to as "Islamic capitalism"
- "Capitalism in Medieval Islam", The Journal of Economic History
29 (1), pp. 79–96 [81, 83, 85, 90, 93, 96].

Just as there are many views among Christianity, from the generous
philanthropy of Carnegie, praised by Abdu'l Baha, to Henry Ford
having strikers shot.. you can find a variety of views among
Islam and a healthy debate among Bahai's

The similarity between Islam, Bahai, Judaism and Christianity
is the primacy placed on the relationship with God, not with
the Golden Calf! B^D

You may go and worship it again! B^D

Even in this ONE TINY Matter, economics, your view that "The
Bahai Faith has SFA to do with Islam" is not sustainable. B^D
The religious don't think Money is evil, but

"The LOVE of money is the ROOT OF ALL EVIL"

- A Judeao-Christian expression shared by Islam and Baha'i!
Post by B J Foster
You don't get it, just like you don't get it in SECULAR
economics, ..that Individual human behaviour is the ENGINE
of all civilizations.. but for the Bahai, the Christians,
the Muslims, Jews etc it is CONSTRAINED by God's rules for
right living..
Post by B J Foster
REGULATION<< By God, and VOLUNTARILY ACCEPTED!!!!!
"There can be no compulsion in Religion" - Baha'i
Post by B J Foster
Those are the things you, and Fundy Friedmanites, IGNORE!
That is why your GREED has CHOKED your economy, to the point of death,
Post by B J Foster
and a Socialist Surgery has ripped your throat open in the
hope that you might start BREATHING again.
Good Luck! B^D
Post by B J Foster
Sounds like capitalism, durrenit. ROTFL.
"The origins of capitalism and free markets can be traced back to the
Caliphate" - The Cambridge economic history of Europe, p. 437.
Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0521087090.

You seem determined to uncover links that prove you wrong! B^)
Post by B J Foster
What does the Bahai philosophy have in common with Islam,
Just the FUNDAMENTALS of Faith; 8^)

La illaha illa allah - "There is no God but God"

And everything which flows from that.

Read the quotes from the Bahai saying.. they are part of the same thing,
along with Judaism and Christianity, Hinduism and Zoroasterians! B^)

I think we are done here..

or at least, you are

Even the full form of the Daily statement of CORE BELIEF
in Islam is accepted by the Baha'i as ABSOLUTELY TRUE;

There is no God but God, and Mohammed is his Prophet" 8^)

You don't get any more 'IN COMMON" than that!!

Why don't you snip all the shared central beliefs and post
your view of perceived differences over economics.. as if they do
not exist even WITHIN Christians! B^D

According to you having Catholic Social Justice activists
disagree with neo-liberal Republican Right wingers means that
Those two Christian groups have 'SFA to do with each other"

Admit it, you speech, as usual was reckless, ill-informed
and inaccurate, and now you just can't admit your error!
Post by B J Foster
You see, the Baha'i believe all the worlds major religions are
inspired by God.. in one long, evolutionary REVELATION!
Thus they believe, as all Muslims do, that the Koran IS
the sacred word of God! AND they believe the
same of the Torah AND the New Testament.
It may not be reciprocated, so you may have to decide
which group you think is right about the differences, but the
common ground is clear and indisputable.
Post by B J Foster
The Baha'i faith IS, LITERALLY..
THAT WHICH IS IN COMMON WITH ALL FAITHS..
All the central teachings are, to the Baha'i perspective,
SHARED.
The Bahia's faith, as Jesus said OF HIMSELF, comes not
to "Change the Law, but to FULFILL IT"
8^o Thus the Baha'i faith claims to be the FULFILLMENT of Islam
I told you all this already when I pointed out that "the Bab"
is held by Baha'i to be the Mahdi, the Hidden Imam expected
to return by the Shia Muslims.
You do know who the Shia are, don't you, BJ?
You have no where left to stand on this one BJ.
You were on firmer sand with your Ayn Rand slogan chanting! B^D
But mindless ideology never stands for long,
the Word of God lasts forever.
No point leaving all the wisdom you simply can't
grasp..<snip>
Shalom and Salaam.
So you think that the Bahai 10th principle WHICH YOU
QUOTED under the headline "Islamic Finance Rides
the Storm" reflects Islamic dogma?
No. I never claimed it did. B^)


You foolishly assumed that, and believing there are differences
in many areas, which there are, you stupidly asserted that
the Bahai and Islam have 'SFA in common' when the Bahai, who
you claim are kindred spirits, say otherwise. B^)

Heep banging away, you don't have any credibility to lose. ;-)



---------
THE ONE TRUE LIGHT


Some Hindus bought an elephant, which they exhibited in a dark shed.
As seeing it was impossible, everyone felt it with the palm of his hand.
The hand of one fell on its trunk: he said "This animal is like a
water pipe".
Another touched its ear: to him the creature seemed like a fan.
Another handled its leg and described the elephant as having the shape
of a pillar.
Another stroked its back. "Truly", said he, "this elephant resembles a
throne".
Had each of them held a lighted candle
there would have been no contradiction in their words.

The lamps are different but the Light is the same:
it comes from beyond.
If thou keep looking at the lamp, thou art lost:
for there arises the appearance of number and plurality.
Fix thy gaze upon the Light,
and thou art delivered from the dualism inherent in the finite body.
O thou who art the Kernel of Existence,
the disagreement between Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew depends
upon the standpoint.



- JALALU'DIN - RUMI
B J Foster
2008-10-16 11:02:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by fasgnadh
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
B J Foster reset the Reply-to to alt.fuckwits.. PomPom's
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
"A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"
- http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html
"The most despised of men before God is he who
sits and begs. ...
The best men are they that earn a livelihood by their
calling and spend upon themselves and upon their
kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds."
- Baha'u'llah
Nowhere have I claimed that The Bahai faith and Islam are identical.
You posted the 10th principle of the Bahai faith - with a link - under
the heading "Islamic Finance rides the storm"
Post by fasgnadh
What I posted was an article which shows as the title in the Age said;
"Islamic finance rides the storm", and prefaced it with a view from the
Bahai faith which speaks of "a Spiritual Solution to the Economic
Problems" which are clearly besetting the West.
Proof that you are an utter dork.

Bahai and Islam are like oil & water. About the only thing they have in
common is that they are both religions.

Religion and finance are like oil and water.

Marxism and commonsense are similarly non-compatible frameworks.

Killfile yourself is my advice.
Post by fasgnadh
That does not mean that Islamic Finance IS that solution, merely
that it is one example of Finance based not upon Greed but upon
other principles. Just as the Protestant work ethic and Honesty,
Trust and Prudence in Banking were once CHRISTIAN spiritual values
which found expression in the Economy.. but appear to no longer do so.
I have challenged you to provide *one* single example of executive greed
in major Australian listed companies. There isn't one. The Aussie banks
are superbly well-run.

You are sounding more & more like a rabid dog foaming about a situation
which is simply not applicable - to us.

Rant away about the US. Bigger idiots than you highlighted the problems
*years* ago.
<other garbage ignored>
Post by fasgnadh
However, what BJ has claimed is that there is NO significant link
and that the Bahai faith and Islam have nothing in common,
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Are you aware that Bahai has SFA to do with Islam?
I will repeat some of the simple facts which show the absurdity
of that position, and Bj can snip and pretend they don't exist again;
Baha'u'llah writes in praise of Mohammed in the Kitab-i-Iqan
(the Book of Certitude);
"The following is an evidence of the sovereignty
exercised by Muḥammad, the Day-star of Truth.
Hast thou not heard how with one single verse He hath
sundered light from darkness, the righteous from the ungodly,
and the believing from the infidel?"
"Behold, how many are the Sovereigns who bow the knee
before His name! How numerous the nations and kingdoms
who have sought the shelter of His shadow, who bear
allegiance to His Faith, and pride themselves therein!"
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-1.html
"As to Muhammad, the Apostle of God, let none among His followers who
read these pages, think for a moment that Islam, or its Prophet, or His
Book, or His appointed Successors, or any of His authentic teachings,
have been, or are to be in any way, or to however slight a degree,
disparaged." - Shoghi Effendi, Guardian of the Baha'i Faith
"The fundamental principle enunciated by Bahá'u'lláh,
the followers of His Faith firmly believe, is that
religious truth is not absolute but relative, that
Divine Revelation is a continuous and progressive process,
that all the great religions of the world are divine in
origin, that their basic principles are in complete harmony,
that their aims and purposes are one and the same, that
their teachings are but facets of one truth, that their
functions are complementary, that they differ only in
the nonessential aspects of their doctrines, and that
their missions represent successive stages in the spiritual
evolution of human society."
- Shoghi Effendi "The Faith of Bahá'u'lláh"
in World Order, Vol. 7, No. 2 (1972-73), p.7.
But the Bahai's clearly state "all the great religions
of the world are divine in origin, that their basic
principles are in complete harmony, that their aims
and purposes are one and the same, that their teachings
are but facets of one truth, that their functions are
complementary, that they differ only in
the nonessential aspects of their doctrines"
To the Bahai, Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Bahai Faith
"represent successive stages in the spiritual evolution of
human society."
That is SOME LINK! B^D
It is clear that, as with your opponents, you seek forgery,
to misrepresent YOUR view as theirs!
To do this, you repeatedly ignore all the words of the
Bahai's themselves and assert one tiny snippet,
and attribute your view that it alone represents
an unbridgeable gulf between Islam and the Bahai..
when clearly BOTH function in the world of economics;
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
"the basis of prosperity is still *individual* effort, hard work
and independence".
"The origins of capitalism and free markets can be traced back to the
Caliphate" - The Cambridge economic history of Europe, p. 437.
Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0521087090.
" where the first market economy and earliest forms of merchant
Capitalism took root between the 8th–12th centuries, which some
refer to as "Islamic capitalism"
- "Capitalism in Medieval Islam", The Journal of Economic History
29 (1), pp. 79–96 [81, 83, 85, 90, 93, 96].
Just as there are many views among Christianity, from the generous
philanthropy of Carnegie, praised by Abdu'l Baha, to Henry Ford
having strikers shot.. you can find a variety of views among
Islam and a healthy debate among Bahai's
The similarity between Islam, Bahai, Judaism and Christianity
is the primacy placed on the relationship with God, not with
the Golden Calf! B^D
You may go and worship it again! B^D
Even in this ONE TINY Matter, economics, your view that "The
Bahai Faith has SFA to do with Islam" is not sustainable. B^D
The religious don't think Money is evil, but
"The LOVE of money is the ROOT OF ALL EVIL"
- A Judeao-Christian expression shared by Islam and Baha'i!
Post by B J Foster
You don't get it, just like you don't get it in SECULAR
economics, ..that Individual human behaviour is the ENGINE
of all civilizations.. but for the Bahai, the Christians,
the Muslims, Jews etc it is CONSTRAINED by God's rules for
right living..
Post by B J Foster
REGULATION<< By God, and VOLUNTARILY ACCEPTED!!!!!
"There can be no compulsion in Religion" - Baha'i
Post by B J Foster
Those are the things you, and Fundy Friedmanites, IGNORE!
That is why your GREED has CHOKED your economy, to the point of death,
Post by B J Foster
and a Socialist Surgery has ripped your throat open in the
hope that you might start BREATHING again.
Good Luck! B^D
Post by B J Foster
Sounds like capitalism, durrenit. ROTFL.
"The origins of capitalism and free markets can be traced back to the
Caliphate" - The Cambridge economic history of Europe, p. 437.
Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0521087090.
You seem determined to uncover links that prove you wrong! B^)
Post by B J Foster
What does the Bahai philosophy have in common with Islam,
Just the FUNDAMENTALS of Faith; 8^)
La illaha illa allah - "There is no God but God"
And everything which flows from that.
Read the quotes from the Bahai saying.. they are part of the same thing,
along with Judaism and Christianity, Hinduism and Zoroasterians! B^)
I think we are done here..
or at least, you are
Even the full form of the Daily statement of CORE BELIEF
in Islam is accepted by the Baha'i as ABSOLUTELY TRUE;
There is no God but God, and Mohammed is his Prophet" 8^)
You don't get any more 'IN COMMON" than that!!
Why don't you snip all the shared central beliefs and post
your view of perceived differences over economics.. as if they do
not exist even WITHIN Christians! B^D
According to you having Catholic Social Justice activists
disagree with neo-liberal Republican Right wingers means that
Those two Christian groups have 'SFA to do with each other"
Admit it, you speech, as usual was reckless, ill-informed
and inaccurate, and now you just can't admit your error!
Post by B J Foster
You see, the Baha'i believe all the worlds major religions are
inspired by God.. in one long, evolutionary REVELATION!
Thus they believe, as all Muslims do, that the Koran IS
the sacred word of God! AND they believe the
same of the Torah AND the New Testament.
It may not be reciprocated, so you may have to decide
which group you think is right about the differences, but the
common ground is clear and indisputable.
Post by B J Foster
The Baha'i faith IS, LITERALLY..
THAT WHICH IS IN COMMON WITH ALL FAITHS..
All the central teachings are, to the Baha'i perspective,
SHARED.
The Bahia's faith, as Jesus said OF HIMSELF, comes not
to "Change the Law, but to FULFILL IT"
8^o Thus the Baha'i faith claims to be the FULFILLMENT of Islam
I told you all this already when I pointed out that "the Bab"
is held by Baha'i to be the Mahdi, the Hidden Imam expected
to return by the Shia Muslims.
You do know who the Shia are, don't you, BJ?
You have no where left to stand on this one BJ.
You were on firmer sand with your Ayn Rand slogan chanting! B^D
But mindless ideology never stands for long,
the Word of God lasts forever.
No point leaving all the wisdom you simply can't
grasp..<snip>
Shalom and Salaam.
So you think that the Bahai 10th principle WHICH YOU
QUOTED under the headline "Islamic Finance Rides
the Storm" reflects Islamic dogma?
No. I never claimed it did. B^)
You foolishly assumed that, and believing there are differences
in many areas, which there are, you stupidly asserted that
the Bahai and Islam have 'SFA in common' when the Bahai, who
you claim are kindred spirits, say otherwise. B^)
Heep banging away, you don't have any credibility to lose. ;-)
---------
THE ONE TRUE LIGHT
Some Hindus bought an elephant, which they exhibited in a dark shed.
As seeing it was impossible, everyone felt it with the palm of his hand.
The hand of one fell on its trunk: he said "This animal is like a water
pipe".
Another touched its ear: to him the creature seemed like a fan.
Another handled its leg and described the elephant as having the shape
of a pillar.
Another stroked its back. "Truly", said he, "this elephant resembles a
throne".
Had each of them held a lighted candle
there would have been no contradiction in their words.
it comes from beyond.
for there arises the appearance of number and plurality.
Fix thy gaze upon the Light,
and thou art delivered from the dualism inherent in the finite body.
O thou who art the Kernel of Existence,
the disagreement between Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew depends
upon the standpoint.
- JALALU'DIN - RUMI
fasgnadh
2008-10-16 13:06:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by B J Foster
Watch B J Foster snip at the point where the evidence becomes
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
"A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"
- http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html
"The most despised of men before God is he who
sits and begs. ...
The best men are they that earn a livelihood by their
calling and spend upon themselves and upon their
kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds."
- Baha'u'llah
Nowhere have I claimed that The Bahai faith and Islam are identical.
But BJ has posted about Carnegie in a thread about "Islamic Finance
rides the storm", so by HIS insane logic, HE thinks that means the
two are IDENTICAL!!! B^p

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAA!
Post by B J Foster
You posted the 10th principle of the Bahai faith - with a link - under
the heading "Islamic Finance rides the storm"
Sure, it's a related QUOTE. Like you posted about Carnegie,
in the same thread.. Neither implies a claim to the two things
being IDENTICAL , you insane Friedmanite Fanatic! B^D

My quote starts "The Most despised of men before God..."
(It's about putting God first, as in Islam) but you say that
the Baha'i faith is like Capitalism, and rant about Carnegie.
Then you claim: "Religion and finance are like oil and water"

YOU completely contradict yourself! You will say ANYTHING
to avoid facing what a fool you have made of yourself having
revealed your complete IGNORANCE! B^p

Resolve your blatant self-contradicting idiocy before you ask
me to explain your stupid assertion that talking about two things
in one post is a claim they are IDENTICAL!!! B^D


You are getting crazier by the minute..! B^p

Clearly all the evidence of how the central figures of the
Baha'i faith praise Mohammed and Islam has unhinged you..
as you realise your ignorant assertion "that Baha'i has SFA
to do with Islam" is naive, absurd twaddle!
Post by B J Foster
What I posted was an article which shows as the title in the Age said;
"Islamic finance rides the storm", and prefaced it with a view from the
Bahai faith which speaks of "a Spiritual Solution to the Economic
Problems" which are clearly besetting the West.
Bahai and Islam are like oil & water.
Like Carnegie finance and Religion!

You just make shit up as you go, you poor dolt!
Post by B J Foster
About the only thing they have in
common is that they are both religions.
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAAAA

"Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam?" - BJ, about to explain his
concept of Sweet Fuck All!

After all SFA is about ALL HE KNOWS!!!!!!!!!! B ^D

So, of all the religions, BJ, would you like to name one
CLOSER to Islam than the Baha'i, who praise Mohammed and
regard the Koran as ONE OF THEIR SACRED TEXTS!

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAAAAA
Post by B J Foster
Religion and finance are like oil and water.
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAH!

Tell it to the Vatican!

Tell it to the Tele-evangelists "IF YOU LOVES GOD..
YOU WILL GIVE HIM YOUR MONEY!!!"

"Here's MY address, send it to me and I will make sure he gets it! "

You know even less about Religion than you do about FINANCE

B^D
Post by B J Foster
Marxism and commonsense are similarly non-compatible frameworks.
You become more random and incoherent by the minute! B^D
Post by B J Foster
Killfile yourself is my advice.
That does not mean that Islamic Finance IS that solution, merely
that it is one example of Finance based not upon Greed but upon
other principles. Just as the Protestant work ethic and Honesty,
Trust and Prudence in Banking were once CHRISTIAN spiritual values
which found expression in the Economy.. but appear to no longer do so.
I have challenged you to provide *one* single example of executive greed
in major Australian listed companies.
Haven't you noticed? no one takes seriously the petulant foot stamping
of a pathetic forger and fraud like you.. except to mock and ridicule
you and your Magic Fairyland, where Ayn Rand greets you wearing
Post by B J Foster
There isn't one.
There are hundreds of them, they all live in the place where
your Perfect Capitalism operates.. the one you can't find or name!

BWEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHA!

<other garbage ignored>

BJ reaches the point where his pointlessness is hammered home,
and wisely RUNS AWAY!

Don't worry BJ, I don't post this for you, you are an intellectual
coward and a fraud, i post it for the curious truth seekers. ;-)

You are an Ostrich;

http://www.geocities.com/townsville_taliban/endoscope.html
Post by B J Foster
However, what BJ has claimed is that there is NO significant link
and that the Bahai faith and Islam have nothing in common,
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Are you aware that Bahai has SFA to do with Islam?
"they have in common .. that they are both religions." - BJ

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAA!
Post by B J Foster
I will repeat some of the simple facts which show the absurdity
of that position, and BJ can snip and pretend they don't exist again;
Are my predictions, about Market behaviour OR BJ's, ALWAYS RIGHT! ;-)
Post by B J Foster
Baha'u'llah writes in praise of Mohammed in the Kitab-i-Iqan
(the Book of Certitude);
Well as BJ points out, they ARE both religions and we all
know how well THEY traditionally get along!

And here is the Baha'i, who started the modern Eucumenical
movement, and serious Inter-faith dialogue, not only
refusing to claim that historical Wall-Builder "We are
the One True Faith" but actually saying the opposite..

"They are all the One True Faith! " 8^o

And they mean it about Islam, DESPITE the bloody persecutions
they have suffered at the hands of Muslims!

No wonder they say Baha'u'llah is the RETURN, in SPIRIT, of Christ! ;-)
Post by B J Foster
"The following is an evidence of the sovereignty
exercised by Muḥammad, the Day-star of Truth.
Hast thou not heard how with one single verse He hath
sundered light from darkness, the righteous from the ungodly,
and the believing from the infidel?"
"Behold, how many are the Sovereigns who bow the knee
before His name! How numerous the nations and kingdoms
who have sought the shelter of His shadow, who bear
allegiance to His Faith, and pride themselves therein!"
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-1.html
A little while ago, when the thought he could wedge me, BJ wanted
to co-opt the Baha'i, and suggest, on the basis of a tiny snippet
that I presented to him, that the Bahia 'sound like Capitalism' B^D

And let now he refuses to read them, because it shatters his ILLUSIONS,
and that seems to be all Bj has, and is DESPERATE to cling to. B^(
Post by B J Foster
"As to Muhammad, the Apostle of God, let none among His followers who
read these pages, think for a moment that Islam, or its Prophet, or His
Book, or His appointed Successors, or any of His authentic teachings,
have been, or are to be in any way, or to however slight a degree,
disparaged." - Shoghi Effendi, Guardian of the Baha'i Faith
"The fundamental principle enunciated by Bahá'u'lláh,
the followers of His Faith firmly believe, is that
religious truth is not absolute but relative, that
Divine Revelation is a continuous and progressive process,
that all the great religions of the world are divine in
origin, that their basic principles are in complete harmony,
that their aims and purposes are one and the same, that
their teachings are but facets of one truth, that their
functions are complementary, that they differ only in
the nonessential aspects of their doctrines, and that
their missions represent successive stages in the spiritual
evolution of human society."
- Shoghi Effendi "The Faith of Bahá'u'lláh"
in World Order, Vol. 7, No. 2 (1972-73), p.7.
To Cannegie's Philanthropy, which you tried to paint as
identical, but not to Islam, which it regards itself as being
in UNITY with! 8^)
Post by B J Foster
But the Bahai's clearly state "all the great religions
of the world are divine in origin, that their basic
principles are in complete harmony, that their aims
and purposes are one and the same, that their teachings
are but facets of one truth, that their functions are
complementary, that they differ only in
the nonessential aspects of their doctrines"
Wow. differ only in the Non-essential aspects...

So The Baha'i SPECIFICALLY reject BJ's Claim that

"Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam".

Now you and I know he WILL read that.

And he WILL know what an ass he looks to all of you.

But he simply won't ADMIT IT.

He's an intellectual fraud and a moral bankrupt.

A man who simply cannot admit when he is wrong.
Post by B J Foster
To the Bahai, Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Bahai Faith
"represent successive stages in the spiritual evolution of
human society."
That is SOME LINK! B^D
It is clear that, as with your opponents, you seek forgery,
to misrepresent YOUR view as theirs!
To do this, you repeatedly ignore all the words of the
Bahai's themselves and assert one tiny snippet,
and attribute your view that it alone represents
an unbridgeable gulf between Islam and the Bahai..
when clearly BOTH function in the world of economics;
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
"the basis of prosperity is still *individual* effort, hard work
and independence".
"The origins of capitalism and free markets can be traced back to the
Caliphate" - The Cambridge economic history of Europe, p. 437.
Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0521087090.
" where the first market economy and earliest forms of merchant
Capitalism took root between the 8th–12th centuries, which some
refer to as "Islamic capitalism"
- "Capitalism in Medieval Islam", The Journal of Economic History
29 (1), pp. 79–96 [81, 83, 85, 90, 93, 96].
Just as there are many views among Christianity, from the generous
philanthropy of Carnegie, praised by Abdu'l Baha, to Henry Ford
having strikers shot.. you can find a variety of views among
Islam and a healthy debate among Bahai's
The similarity between Islam, Bahai, Judaism and Christianity
is the primacy placed on the relationship with God, not with
the Golden Calf! B^D
You may go and worship it again! B^D
Even in this ONE TINY Matter, economics, your view that "The
Bahai Faith has SFA to do with Islam" is not sustainable. B^D
The religious don't think Money is evil, but
"The LOVE of money is the ROOT OF ALL EVIL"
- A Judeao-Christian expression shared by Islam and Baha'i!
Post by B J Foster
You don't get it, just like you don't get it in SECULAR
economics, ..that Individual human behaviour is the ENGINE
of all civilizations.. but for the Bahai, the Christians,
the Muslims, Jews etc it is CONSTRAINED by God's rules for
right living..
Post by B J Foster
REGULATION<< By God, and VOLUNTARILY ACCEPTED!!!!!
"There can be no compulsion in Religion" - Baha'i
Post by B J Foster
Those are the things you, and Fundy Friedmanites, IGNORE!
That is why your GREED has CHOKED your economy, to the point of death,
Post by B J Foster
and a Socialist Surgery has ripped your throat open in the
hope that you might start BREATHING again.
Good Luck! B^D
Post by B J Foster
Sounds like capitalism, durrenit. ROTFL.
"The origins of capitalism and free markets can be traced back to the
Caliphate" - The Cambridge economic history of Europe, p. 437.
Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0521087090.
You seem determined to uncover links that prove you wrong! B^)
Post by B J Foster
What does the Bahai philosophy have in common with Islam,
Just the FUNDAMENTALS of Faith; 8^)
La illaha illa allah - "There is no God but God"
And everything which flows from that.
Read the quotes from the Bahai saying.. they are part of the same thing,
along with Judaism and Christianity, Hinduism and Zoroasterians! B^)
I think we are done here..
or at least, you are
Even the full form of the Daily statement of CORE BELIEF
in Islam is accepted by the Baha'i as ABSOLUTELY TRUE;
There is no God but God, and Mohammed is his Prophet" 8^)
You don't get any more 'IN COMMON" than that!!
Why don't you snip all the shared central beliefs and post
your view of perceived differences over economics.. as if they do
not exist even WITHIN Christians! B^D
According to you having Catholic Social Justice activists
disagree with neo-liberal Republican Right wingers means that
Those two Christian groups have 'SFA to do with each other"
Admit it, you speech, as usual was reckless, ill-informed
and inaccurate, and now you just can't admit your error!
Post by B J Foster
You see, the Baha'i believe all the worlds major religions are
inspired by God.. in one long, evolutionary REVELATION!
Thus they believe, as all Muslims do, that the Koran IS
the sacred word of God! AND they believe the
same of the Torah AND the New Testament.
It may not be reciprocated, so you may have to decide
which group you think is right about the differences, but the
common ground is clear and indisputable.
Post by B J Foster
The Baha'i faith IS, LITERALLY..
THAT WHICH IS IN COMMON WITH ALL FAITHS..
All the central teachings are, to the Baha'i perspective,
SHARED.
The Bahia's faith, as Jesus said OF HIMSELF, comes not
to "Change the Law, but to FULFILL IT"
8^o Thus the Baha'i faith claims to be the FULFILLMENT of Islam
I told you all this already when I pointed out that "the Bab"
is held by Baha'i to be the Mahdi, the Hidden Imam expected
to return by the Shia Muslims.
You do know who the Shia are, don't you, BJ?
You have no where left to stand on this one BJ.
You were on firmer sand with your Ayn Rand slogan chanting! B^D
But mindless ideology never stands for long,
the Word of God lasts forever.
No point leaving all the wisdom you simply can't
grasp..<snip>
Shalom and Salaam.
So you think that the Bahai 10th principle WHICH YOU
QUOTED under the headline "Islamic Finance Rides
the Storm" reflects Islamic dogma?
No. I never claimed it did. B^)
You foolishly assumed that, and believing there are differences
in many areas, which there are, you stupidly asserted that
the Bahai and Islam have 'SFA in common' when the Bahai, who
you claim are kindred spirits, say otherwise. B^)
Heep banging away, you don't have any credibility to lose. ;-)
---------
THE ONE TRUE LIGHT
Some Hindus bought an elephant, which they exhibited in a dark shed.
As seeing it was impossible, everyone felt it with the palm of his hand.
The hand of one fell on its trunk: he said "This animal is like a
water pipe".
Another touched its ear: to him the creature seemed like a fan.
Another handled its leg and described the elephant as having the
shape of a pillar.
Another stroked its back. "Truly", said he, "this elephant resembles
a throne".
Had each of them held a lighted candle
there would have been no contradiction in their words.
it comes from beyond.
for there arises the appearance of number and plurality.
Fix thy gaze upon the Light,
and thou art delivered from the dualism inherent in the finite body.
O thou who art the Kernel of Existence,
the disagreement between Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew depends
upon the standpoint.
- JALALU'DIN - RUMI
--
---------

"Ohhhhh Say can you see
By the dawns early light
The markets in panic
and Republicans take flight! "

---------


"The Fundamentals of our Economy remain Strong" - John McSame,
Republican Candidate for the Presidency of the Derivative Ravaged,
Crisis torn, Economic Basket Case, The USSA!

http://www.geocities.com/townsville_taliban/endoscope.html


---------
Seon Ferguson
2008-10-17 05:11:49 UTC
Permalink
Watch B J Foster snip at the point where the evidence becomes
Post by fasgnadh
"A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"
- http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html
"The most despised of men before God is he who
sits and begs. ...
The best men are they that earn a livelihood by their
calling and spend upon themselves and upon their
kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds."
- Baha'u'llah
Nowhere have I claimed that The Bahai faith and Islam are identical.
You posted the 10th principle of the Bahai faith - with a link - under the
heading "Islamic Finance rides the storm"
What I posted was an article which shows as the title in the Age said;
"Islamic finance rides the storm", and prefaced it with a view from the
Bahai faith which speaks of "a Spiritual Solution to the Economic
Problems" which are clearly besetting the West.
Proof that you are an utter dork.
Bahai and Islam are like oil & water. About the only thing they have in
common is that they are both religions.
You are right. The only other thing they have in common with each other is
bahai's believe Muhamud was a prohet and Muslims believe he was the last in
the line of prophets (which is why Muslim extremists love persecuting
Bahai's)
Its like Islam and Christianity. Christians say Jesus was God and was
resserected in the 3rd day after he was killed on the cross. Muslims think
he just decended to heaven.
fasgnadh
2008-10-17 07:58:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Seon Ferguson
Post by fasgnadh
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
"A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"
- http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html
"The most despised of men before God is he who
sits and begs. ...
The best men are they that earn a livelihood by their
calling and spend upon themselves and upon their
kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds."
- Baha'u'llah
Nowhere have I claimed that The Bahai faith and Islam are identical.
What I posted was an article which shows as the title in the Age said;
"Islamic finance rides the storm", and prefaced it with a view from the
Bahai faith which speaks of "a Spiritual Solution to the Economic
Problems" which are clearly besetting the West.
That does not mean that Islamic Finance IS that solution, merely
that it is one example of Finance based not upon Greed but upon
other principles. Just as the Protestant work ethic and Honesty,
Trust and Prudence in Banking were once CHRISTIAN spiritual values
which found expression in the Economy.. but appear to no longer do so.
However, what BJ has claimed is that there is NO significant link
and that the Bahai faith and Islam have nothing in common,
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Are you aware that Bahai has SFA to do with Islam?
You are right.
Post by fasgnadh
I will repeat some of the simple facts which show the absurdity
of that position, and Bj can snip and pretend they don't exist again;
Baha'u'llah writes in praise of Mohammed in the Kitab-i-Iqan
(the Book of Certitude);
Post by Seon Ferguson
Post by fasgnadh
"The following is an evidence of the sovereignty
exercised by Muḥammad, the Day-star of Truth.
Hast thou not heard how with one single verse He hath
sundered light from darkness, the righteous from the ungodly,
and the believing from the infidel?"
Apart from THAT, "Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam" - BJ

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAA
Post by Seon Ferguson
Post by fasgnadh
"Behold, how many are the Sovereigns who bow the knee
before His name! How numerous the nations and kingdoms
who have sought the shelter of His shadow, who bear
allegiance to His Faith, and pride themselves therein!"
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-1.html
"As to Muhammad, the Apostle of God, let none among His followers who
read these pages, think for a moment that Islam, or its Prophet, or His
Book, or His appointed Successors, or any of His authentic teachings,
have been, or are to be in any way, or to however slight a degree,
disparaged." - Shoghi Effendi, Guardian of the Baha'i Faith

Apart from THAT, "Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam" - BJ

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAA

"The fundamental principle enunciated by Bahá'u'lláh,
the followers of His Faith firmly believe, is that
religious truth is not absolute but relative, that
Divine Revelation is a continuous and progressive process,
that all the great religions of the world are divine in
origin, that their basic principles are in complete harmony,
that their aims and purposes are one and the same, that
their teachings are but facets of one truth, that their
functions are complementary, that they differ only in
the nonessential aspects of their doctrines, and that
their missions represent successive stages in the spiritual
evolution of human society."

- Shoghi Effendi "The Faith of Bahá'u'lláh"
in World Order, Vol. 7, No. 2 (1972-73), p.7.


Apart from THAT, ..."Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam" - BJ

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAA
Post by Seon Ferguson
The only other thing they have in common with each other
Apart from the key figures in the Baha'i faith being Siyyid
and Mirza.. descendants of the Prophet Mohammed,


Apart from THAT, "Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam" - BJ

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAA


And there is the small matter of the claim of the Bab
to be the Shiite Mahdi, the expected Hidden Imam...!! B^D

Apart from THAT, "Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam" - BJ

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAA
Post by Seon Ferguson
is bahai's believe Muhamud was a prohet
Apart from THAT, "Baha'i has SFA to do with Islam" - BJ

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAA



How much of "Sweet Fuck all" do you two twonks intend to give us!?
Post by Seon Ferguson
and Muslims believe he was the
last in the line of prophets
which is why Muslim extremists love persecuting Bahai's)
PRECISLEY! As I have explained before, to Kangarooistan,
who will happily give you plenty of evidence of hostility
by many Muslims, who simply don't understand the Koran! B^D


Here's a question to ask Muslims about their understanding
of "Seal of the Prophets", when I asked Charlie Sadadeen,
he stopped talking to me altogether, and Kangarooistan just
denounced Bahai's as American lackies who deserve to be
mistreated by Iranian Mullahs;

# What is the difference between Nabi (plural anbiyaa )
# and Rasul (plural Rusul )?


# Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 21:49:35 +1000
# From: fasgnadh <***@yahoo.com>
# Subject: Re: When the Moors ruled in Europe
# Message-ID: <4676714e$0$22415$***@news.optusnet.com.au>
#
# Highlandish wrote:
# > and don't forget that the Jewish god is the same god
# > that xtians and Muslims worship. the only difference
# > between the 3 are different prophets.
#
# Actually progressive revelation is like Russian Babooshka Dolls,
# (each one contains the previous ones).
#
# Juduaism accepts the prophets, but not Christ, they are still waiting
# for him.
#
# Christianity accepts the prophets and Jesus, but not Mohammed,
# because they think 'No man comes to the Father but by Me' is a
# conditional exclusion of all other faiths. (Except those
# that acknowledge Jesus, obviously*! ;-)
#
#
# Muslims accept the prophets, and *Jesus* and Mohammed, but not
# Baha'u'llah, because they believe "Mohammed is the Seal of the
# prophets" is a conditional exclusion of all later faiths.
#
# Which might be true, If only the Koran didn't describe
# Jesus, Moses and Mohammed as "rasul" - MESSENGERS and use
# "nabi" - PROPHET (pl 'anbiyaa') more generally to include
# Isiah, Ezekial and 23 other lesser characters, Including all
# of the heavies, the "rasul"
#
# All of the Rasul are nabi, not all of the nabi are Rasul.
#
# Mohammed is the seal of the (lesser) 'nabi', but not
# necessarily of the (greater) 'Rasul', ie, the clear
# and explicit reading of the Koran would be that the age
# of the *prophets* is over, but that does NOT mean 'no
# more Messengers'. B^)

Over that misunderstanding, some Muslims persecute
even kill, some Baha'i.

The ones I know personally, are friends with one another.

# You can see why the Jews persecuted the Christians,
# the Christians persecuted the Muslims, and the Muslims
# persecute the Bahais.
#
# None of the Chosen People like to be told they are not
# the ONLY ones chosen! B^D
Post by Seon Ferguson
Its like Islam and Christianity.
So, you have read my posts and agree with my subject header! B^)

Muslims in Persia killd the Bab for precisely the same reasons
that Jews had Christ crucified.. they claimed that the prophecies
were not fulfilled.

"Messiah should be a KING, where is his kingdom?" In heaven

"The Prophets say Messiah will have a sword." Jesus said his Word
would cleave families.. some would believe, others would not!

If the Muslims want to claim Mohammed is ONLY a Nabi, a prophet,
rather than a Rasul... THEN THE BAHAI ACCORD MOHAMMED A GREATER
STATUS THAN DO THOSE WHO CLAIM TO BE HIS FAITHFUL SERVANTS!!! 8^o





Then tell BJ, because he thinks If Judaism and Christianity
ONLY(sic) share the One God, the Messiah and all their central
beliefs, then they "have SFA to do with" each other! B^D

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAAAAA

Thanks for helping to highlight what ALL the Judeao / Christian /
Islamic / Baha'i religions have in COMMON..

ALL THE IMPORTANT, CENTRAL BELIEFS....

Like the factions in Monty Python's Life of Brian, some
of them IGNORE WHAT THEY ARE COMMANDED BY GOD TO DO, and
instead fight over whether the "Sacred Gourd" which Brian
drank from, or the Holy Sandle he wore on his feet, is the most
important relic, and should be worshipped!

Humans tend to make Idols of their religions, it is described
in the story of Moses and the Ten Commandments.. by the time
he got back down with them off Mt Sinai, the 'believers' had
already fashioned a Golden Calf to worship!

.. and it is still displacing Allah, on Wall St and in men's hearts
Post by Seon Ferguson
Christians say Jesus was God
Can you explain The Trinity to me? It sounds like a
non-scriptural invention. ;-)

The Baha'is resolve this 'difference' elegantly, but I'm reluctant
to explain when neither you or BJ are interested in any new ideas.
Post by Seon Ferguson
and was
resserected in the 3rd day after he was killed on the cross.
So he's still around now? B^D
Post by Seon Ferguson
Muslims think he just decended to heaven.
Christians believe the same.

But it's "Ascended", not descended. Up ..not Down, that's the Fiery Pit!

There is no 'ascent' or 'descent', these are METAPHORS.

Heaven/ paradise is not a PHYSICAL place, it is a spiritual state..
there is no up or down, but their is no way to discuss them without
using words which describe a physical universe.

Thus Jesus used Metaphors to teach Spiritual lessons..
all religions do;


---------
THE ONE TRUE LIGHT


Some Hindus bought an elephant, which they exhibited in a dark shed.
As seeing it was impossible, everyone felt it with the palm of his
hand.
The hand of one fell on its trunk: he said
"This animal is like a water pipe".
Another touched its ear: to him the creature seemed like a fan.
Another handled its leg and described the elephant as having
the shape of a pillar.
Another stroked its back. "Truly", said he, "this elephant
resembles a throne".

Had each of them held a lighted candle
there would have been no contradiction in their words.

The lamps are different but the Light is the same:
it comes from beyond.
If thou keep looking at the lamp, thou art lost:
for there arises the appearance of number and plurality.
Fix thy gaze upon the Light,
and thou art delivered from the dualism inherent in the finite body.
O thou who art the Kernel of Existence,
the disagreement between Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew depends
upon the standpoint.



- JALALU'DIN - RUMI
Post by Seon Ferguson
Post by fasgnadh
But the Bahai's clearly state "all the great religions
of the world are divine in origin, that their basic
principles are in complete harmony, that their aims
and purposes are one and the same, that their teachings
are but facets of one truth, that their functions are
complementary, that they differ only in
the nonessential aspects of their doctrines"
To the Bahai, Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Bahai Faith
"represent successive stages in the spiritual evolution of
human society."
That is SOME LINK! B^D
It is clear that, as with your opponents, you seek forgery,
to misrepresent YOUR view as theirs!
To do this, you repeatedly ignore all the words of the
Bahai's themselves and assert one tiny snippet,
and attribute your view that it alone represents
an unbridgeable gulf between Islam and the Bahai..
when clearly BOTH function in the world of economics;
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
Post by B J Foster
"the basis of prosperity is still *individual* effort, hard work
and independence".
"The origins of capitalism and free markets can be traced back to the
Caliphate" - The Cambridge economic history of Europe, p. 437.
Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0521087090.
" where the first market economy and earliest forms of merchant
Capitalism took root between the 8th–12th centuries, which some
refer to as "Islamic capitalism"
- "Capitalism in Medieval Islam", The Journal of Economic History
29 (1), pp. 79–96 [81, 83, 85, 90, 93, 96].
Just as there are many views among Christianity, from the generous
philanthropy of Carnegie, praised by Abdu'l Baha, to Henry Ford
having strikers shot.. you can find a variety of views among
Islam and a healthy debate among Bahai's
The similarity between Islam, Bahai, Judaism and Christianity
is the primacy placed on the relationship with God, not with
the Golden Calf! B^D
You may go and worship it again! B^D
Even in this ONE TINY Matter, economics, your view that "The
Bahai Faith has SFA to do with Islam" is not sustainable. B^D
The religious don't think Money is evil, but
"The LOVE of money is the ROOT OF ALL EVIL"
- A Judeao-Christian expression shared by Islam and Baha'i!
Post by B J Foster
You don't get it, just like you don't get it in SECULAR
economics, ..that Individual human behaviour is the ENGINE
of all civilizations.. but for the Bahai, the Christians,
the Muslims, Jews etc it is CONSTRAINED by God's rules for
right living..
Post by B J Foster
REGULATION<< By God, and VOLUNTARILY ACCEPTED!!!!!
"There can be no compulsion in Religion" - Baha'i
Post by B J Foster
Those are the things you, and Fundy Friedmanites, IGNORE!
That is why your GREED has CHOKED your economy, to the point of death,
Post by B J Foster
and a Socialist Surgery has ripped your throat open in the
hope that you might start BREATHING again.
Good Luck! B^D
Post by B J Foster
Sounds like capitalism, durrenit. ROTFL.
"The origins of capitalism and free markets can be traced back to the
Caliphate" - The Cambridge economic history of Europe, p. 437.
Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0521087090.
You seem determined to uncover links that prove you wrong! B^)
Post by B J Foster
What does the Bahai philosophy have in common with Islam,
Just the FUNDAMENTALS of Faith; 8^)
La illaha illa allah - "There is no God but God"
And everything which flows from that.
Read the quotes from the Bahai saying.. they are part of the same thing,
along with Judaism and Christianity, Hinduism and Zoroasterians! B^)
I think we are done here..
or at least, you are
Even the full form of the Daily statement of CORE BELIEF
in Islam is accepted by the Baha'i as ABSOLUTELY TRUE;
There is no God but God, and Mohammed is his Prophet" 8^)
You don't get any more 'IN COMMON" than that!!
Why don't you snip all the shared central beliefs and post
your view of perceived differences over economics.. as if they do
not exist even WITHIN Christians! B^D
According to you having Catholic Social Justice activists
disagree with neo-liberal Republican Right wingers means that
Those two Christian groups have 'SFA to do with each other"
Admit it, you speech, as usual was reckless, ill-informed
and inaccurate, and now you just can't admit your error!
Post by B J Foster
You see, the Baha'i believe all the worlds major religions are
inspired by God.. in one long, evolutionary REVELATION!
Thus they believe, as all Muslims do, that the Koran IS
the sacred word of God! AND they believe the
same of the Torah AND the New Testament.
It may not be reciprocated, so you may have to decide
which group you think is right about the differences, but the
common ground is clear and indisputable.
Post by B J Foster
The Baha'i faith IS, LITERALLY..
THAT WHICH IS IN COMMON WITH ALL FAITHS..
All the central teachings are, to the Baha'i perspective,
SHARED.
The Bahia's faith, as Jesus said OF HIMSELF, comes not
to "Change the Law, but to FULFILL IT"
8^o Thus the Baha'i faith claims to be the FULFILLMENT of Islam
I told you all this already when I pointed out that "the Bab"
is held by Baha'i to be the Mahdi, the Hidden Imam expected
to return by the Shia Muslims.
You do know who the Shia are, don't you, BJ?
You have no where left to stand on this one BJ.
You were on firmer sand with your Ayn Rand slogan chanting! B^D
But mindless ideology never stands for long,
the Word of God lasts forever.
No point leaving all the wisdom you simply can't
grasp..<snip>
Shalom and Salaam.
So you think that the Bahai 10th principle WHICH YOU
QUOTED under the headline "Islamic Finance Rides
the Storm" reflects Islamic dogma?
No. I never claimed it did. B^)
You foolishly assumed that, and believing there are differences
in many areas, which there are, you stupidly asserted that
the Bahai and Islam have 'SFA in common' when the Bahai, who
you claim are kindred spirits, say otherwise. B^)
Heep banging away, you don't have any credibility to lose. ;-)
---------

"Ohhhhh Say can you see
By the dawns early light
The markets in panic
and Republicans take flight! "

---------


"The Fundamentals of our Economy remain Strong" - John McSame,
Republican Candidate for the Presidency of the Derivative Ravaged,
Crisis torn, Economic Basket Case, The USSA!

http://www.geocities.com/townsville_taliban/endoscope.html


---------
B J Foster
2008-10-17 11:38:28 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by fasgnadh
Nowhere have I claimed that The Bahai faith and Islam are identical.
What I posted was an article which shows as the title in the Age said;
"Islamic finance rides the storm", and prefaced it with a view from the
Bahai faith which speaks of "a Spiritual Solution to the Economic
Problems" which are clearly besetting the West.
Wot a dork!
Post by fasgnadh
That does not mean that Islamic Finance IS that solution, ...
Indeed. 97% of Saudi Arabia's exports are oil, or oil products.

±DoügßÇ
2008-10-14 15:33:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by fasgnadh
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
"A Spiritual Solution to Economic Problems"
- http://www.uhj.net/bahaiprinciples/economics.html
"The most despised of men before God is he who
sits and begs. ...
The best men are they that earn a livelihood by their
calling and spend upon themselves and upon their
kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds."
- Baha'u'llah
Are you aware that Bahai has SFA to do with Islam?
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAAAA!
That's like saying 'What does Jesus have to do with Judaism!?"
Then why do the muslime pig fucks persecute them without exception
piggy?
ABC 123 ♪♫♫♪♪♪♪♫♫♫♫♪♫
2008-10-13 13:22:48 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 12, 11:50 am, fasgnadh <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
dealing with any party that
Post by fasgnadh
has a balance sheet more than a third of which is debt
are forbidden,
Let me get this right.

The purchaser has to put down 2/3 of the price of the house and gives
this money to the bank who owns the house outright. The bank only puts
up 1/3 of the price of the house but receives the whole house + rent
+any fluctuations in house prices, until the house is paid off.

Why would ypu bother drilling for oil if you could set up an islamic
bank.

The only problem is that the rest of the world is not stupid enough to
fall for this trap.

But if you have to put up 2/3 of the purchase price it does explain
why devout Muslims live in shitholes.
fasgnadh
2008-10-13 20:20:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by ABC 123 ♪♫♫♪♪♪♪♫♫♫♫♪♫
Post by fasgnadh
dealing with any party that
has a balance sheet more than a third of which is debt
are forbidden,
The only problem is that the rest of the world is not stupid enough to
fall for this trap.
How's your sub-prime mortgage going?

That interest re-scheduling from 8% to 16% is a Bitch, eh?


---------

"Ohhhhh Say can you see
By the dawns early light
The markets in panic
and Republicans take flight! "

---------


"The Fundamentals of our Economy remain Strong" - John McSame,
Republican Candidate for the Presidency of the Derivative Ravaged,
Crisis torn, Economic Basket Case, The USSA!

http://www.geocities.com/townsville_taliban/endoscope.html


---------
t***@gmail.com
2008-10-13 20:35:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by fasgnadh
Post by ABC 123 ♪♫♫♪♪♪♪♫♫♫♫♪♫
Post by fasgnadh
dealing with any party that
has a balance sheet more than a third of which is debt
are forbidden,
In other words - Islamic Finance doesn't facilitate growth or
productiveness.
Post by fasgnadh
Post by ABC 123 ♪♫♫♪♪♪♪♫♫♫♫♪♫
The only problem is that the rest of the world is not stupid enough to
fall for this trap.
You'd have to have been stupidified by some dodgy mediaeval religion
or something...
Post by fasgnadh
How's your sub-prime mortgage going?
Who has one of those? Maybe somebody exceptionally stupid...?

I got a letter from my bank last week informing me they were reducing
the interest rate.
Post by fasgnadh
That interest re-scheduling from 8% to 16% is a Bitch, eh?
Speaking personally, I'm paying 7% on the bulk of my mortgage, and
8.15% on an extra $25,000.

Of course, if I was a religious idiot with "islamic finance" I'd be
living in some western suburbs shithole instead.
B J Foster
2008-10-13 21:25:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by fasgnadh
Post by ABC 123 ♪♫♫♪♪♪♪♫♫♫♫♪♫
Post by fasgnadh
dealing with any party that
has a balance sheet more than a third of which is debt
are forbidden,
The only problem is that the rest of the world is not stupid enough to
fall for this trap.
How's your sub-prime mortgage going?
That interest re-scheduling from 8% to 16% is a Bitch, eh?
From the tenth principle of the *Bahai* philosophy:
"the basis of prosperity is still *individual* effort, hard work and
independence"

Islam has a completely *different* philosophy and yet you present it as
'Islamic Finance'.

In fact, the Bahai principle sounds remarkably like the capitalist
philosophy which *also* has zip to do with the sub-prime crisis.

Which is not suprising you SILLY TWIT because the Baha'u'llah
corresponded at length with Andrew Carnegie - the great capitalist
philanthropist and the two had much in common.

On matters finance, as on political matters, your best option is to
killfile yourself. That way you won't have to read your own garbage.

'Islamic Finance'. ROTFL
Post by fasgnadh
---------
"Ohhhhh Say can you see
By the dawns early light
The markets in panic
and Republicans take flight! "
---------
"The Fundamentals of our Economy remain Strong" - John McSame,
Republican Candidate for the Presidency of the Derivative Ravaged,
Crisis torn, Economic Basket Case, The USSA!
http://www.geocities.com/townsville_taliban/endoscope.html
---------
fasgnadh
2008-10-16 11:01:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by B J Foster
Post by fasgnadh
Post by ABC 123 ♪♫♫♪♪♪♪♫♫♫♫♪♫
Post by fasgnadh
dealing with any party that
has a balance sheet more than a third of which is debt
are forbidden,
The only problem is that the rest of the world is not stupid enough to
fall for this trap.
How's your sub-prime mortgage going?
That interest re-scheduling from 8% to 16% is a Bitch, eh?
"the basis of prosperity is still *individual* effort, hard work and
independence"
Islam has a completely *different* philosophy and yet you present it as
'Islamic Finance'.
No I didn't B^)
Post by B J Foster
In fact, the Bahai principle sounds remarkably like the capitalist
philosophy which *also* has zip to do with the sub-prime crisis.
Golly, could two groups possibly have things in common.. B^)

Making the suggestion they have "SFA in common" ridiculous!? B^D

Like:

"La illaha illa allah"
Post by B J Foster
Baha'u'llah corresponded at length with Andrew Carnegie
Well, Bahai's have no problem with wealth, but like Islam,
Christianity and Judaism they have a problem with greed.

But do you have any citations in support of this
correspondence?
Post by B J Foster
- the great capitalist philanthropist
Bahai's will not accept philanthropy, but Abdu'l Baha
praised Carnegie for it! (Does ONE difference of principle
mean you claim they have 'SFA to do with each other', again? ;-)

"No one who is not a Baha'i can contribute money to
the Baha'i funds.
There is never a plate passed around at Baha'i meetings.
No one is ever put on the spot and contributions are completely
voluntary and confidential.
Community members are not required to make pledges.
This is a very old policy—since the beginning history of the Faith."

No lobbyists with carpetbags! Imagine if politicians
adopted this!? 8^o

"For example, when the Baha'i House of Worship was being built
in just outside Chicago (beginning in 1912) Andrew Carnegie
wanted to donate $1 million dollars. The Baha'is would not accept it.
As a result of our small numbers, it took 60 years to complete the
structure! Anonymous donations that are received by the Baha'is are
given away to charities since it is a Baha'i law not to take outside
money. In contrast, Baha'is give money to relief victims (from
disasters, etc.) and to other charities—both privately and through our
administrative institutions."
http://watsongregory.homestead.com/files/points.htm


You see, it's one of those self-regulations that reduces the chance of
corruption, of being 'bought off'.

Unlike me, the Bahai's do not involve themselves in Party politics,
so they are scrupulous about not taking ANY money from ANY one.

It's the prudential integrity which marks them out from cults
(follow the MONEY) and even most other mainstream religions.
Post by B J Foster
and the two had much in common.
Baha'u'llah had much in common with everyone, for example

He also wrote to Sultan Abdü'l-'Aziz, Emperor of the Ottoman Empire and

Násiri'd-Din Sháh, King of Persia!

...so according to you, the Bahai have links to Islam at
the HIGHEST LEVEL! B^D

But YOU ridiculously claimed "Bahai has SFA to do with Islam" B^D

Thanks for playing, Fool! B^D

----------

Baha'u'llah wrote to the kings and rulers of the world from
Prison in Akka;

to Alexander II, Tzar of Russia,
Franz Joseph, King of Austria,
Louis Napoleon III,
Pope Pius IX,
Queen Victoria,
Kaiser Wilhelm of Germany,

.. He told them of his mission and abjured them to
rule in the interests of their people, or their
kingdoms would be seized from them.

"In these letters, Bahá'u'lláh openly proclaimed His station.
He spoke of the dawn of a new age.
But first, He warned, there would be catastrophic upheavals
in the world's political and social order.
To smooth humanity's transition, He urged the world's leaders
to pursue justice. He called for general efforts at disarmament
and urged the world's rulers to band together into some form of
commonwealth of nations. Only by acting collectively against
war, He said, could a lasting peace be established."

Only Queen Victoria replied, and of those Monarchies and
Empires, only her's remains. 8^o
The rest were swept away. Probably just co-incidence. ;-)


Abdul Baha traveled the world preaching peace, often in Church's,
and warning of a coming great world conflagration and calling for
a global body to ensure Collective security..
WWI and the Bolshevik revolution followed and then
the world's first attempt at Global Security, the
League of Nations, was formed.

Tolstoy wrote "The Keys to world peace are in the hands of the
prisoner of Akka"

Here is how an exile and prisoner addressed the
British Queen:

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/slh-8.html

You could also go and read Baha'u'llah's
praise of Mohammed and Islam in the
Kitáb-i-Íqán, "The Book of Certitude"

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/

And then tell me how Bahai and Islam have SFA in common. B^D

---------

"Ohhhhh Say can you see
By the dawns early light
The markets in panic
and Republicans take flight! "

---------


"The Fundamentals of our Economy remain Strong" - John McSame,
Republican Candidate for the Presidency of the Derivative Ravaged,
Crisis torn, Economic Basket Case, The USSA!

http://www.geocities.com/townsville_taliban/endoscope.html


---------
B J Foster
2008-10-16 11:13:42 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by fasgnadh
Post by B J Foster
"the basis of prosperity is still *individual* effort, hard work and
independence"
Islam has a completely *different* philosophy and yet you present it
as 'Islamic Finance'.
No I didn't B^)
You posted the 10th principle of the Bahai under the heading of 'Islamic
Finance rides the storm'

...
Post by fasgnadh
Thanks for playing, Fool! B^D
ABC 123 ♪♫♫♪♪♪♪♫♫♫♫♪♫
2008-10-13 23:59:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by fasgnadh
How's your sub-prime mortgage going?
That interest re-scheduling from 8% to 16% is a Bitch, eh?
1. Were in Australia, so No sub prime mortgages.
2. Low start mortgages do not double but go up to the std rate after
the honeymoon period.
3. I did get a letter from my bank telling me my Investment loans were
going down .8%
4. i dont live in a shithole and my home is fully paid off.

But then My God doesnt tell me what to do with my money.
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