Post by B J FosterPost by fasgnadhBit of reach to describe the opinions of these 5 nutjobs
as "Muslim views in Australia", Mark.
For three reasons you might want to think about that.
1. According to their own testimony the went to Libya
to try and find an Imam who would give them a fatwa
supporitng their murderous plot, and make them feel
they were doing God's work. Why the trip? Because
they knew that no Muslim Imam in Australia would back
their mad plot.
THAT MY FRIEND, IS THE "MUSLIM VIEWS IN AUSTRALIA!"
Good point.
Thanks, these are areas where bipartisan decency is important.
We really don't want to risk the success we have here in
Australia. Muslims, Christians, Jews and Non-believers
living in equity, and harmony, under the common law is
a treasure many people have never possessed.
You and I can go back to arguing the small stuff, measured
in $billions, later.
Post by B J FosterPost by fasgnadh2. These nutters were under surveillance for MONTHS while
all those tapes tendered in evidence were being made BECAUSE
some in the Muslim community in Australia tipped the police and Intel
services that there were some dangerous random nutjobs in their
midst. Now that no doubt put them at some risk, but never mind,
just ignore their bravery, and loyalty and lump them in with the
terrorists they dobbed in, who you credit as the "Muslim views
in Australia"
Good point.
Post by fasgnadh3. I don't know why I have to keep saying this, especially as I
actually have Persian friends who are persecuted minorities
in Iran, but Muslims are not on trial here.
Says something about the majority.
Post by fasgnadh5 violent,
dangerous, but thankfully not very bright, delusional
fucktards are. 200,000,000 Muslims right next door, the vast
majority despised teh Bali bombers as much as we do, so we worked
with them, tracked down, tried and executed the rabid dogs.
We worked with a handful of cops. Do you have evidence that the
200,000,000 were in favour of the justice meted out?
Not sure I would want to claim that, (although the police are
the servants of their (growing) democracy and the politicians
making those decisions are elected) ..
..I actually think this might have been a case where
a rational government (Indonesia's) actually showed Leadership...
ie put those fucking animals on TRIAL, let the people
observe them, let them be exposed as raving fucking nutters..
take this opportunity to EDUCATE them (many are
functionally illiterate) into the DIFFERENCE between the
Islam they know and practice, and the one that Jemaah Islamiah
teaches... and then LAWFULLY execute the garbage!
I think that process resulted in de-mystifying
and destroying the appeal of that rabid extremism.
The job is not done, however. I think our government,
also showed Leadership, and it was probably initiated
under Howard, when we not only collaborated in the
legal judicial approach to eradicating radical Islamists,
but funded the establishment of thousands of moderate
madrassas. One reason Wahabbism was taking hold in
Indonesia was that poor Indonesians can't afford schools
for their kids.. and the Saudis were funding them.. so if
you wanted your kid to get an education, he also got
indoctrination in Wahabbism, courtesy of the Saudis..
( US allies BTW ... you gotta love the Oil Junkies! pfft)
Now, courtesy of Aussie tax dollars I don't begrudge one
bit, because they are a great investment in a secure
future, Indonesian parents can choose moderate madrassas
for their kids, and they are!
Co-operation with moderate Muslims is not a dream,
it WORKS!
Post by B J FosterPost by fasgnadhAs for "Muslim views in Austrtalia" I will go with my friend,
now in her late 60's who was held in a Shi'ite prison in Tehran
and bastinadoed.. beating the souls of the feet, she still limps.
So now we're down to a sample of one. A weighty sample, I'll grant you,
but nevertheless *one*.
OPh, my argument isn't based on this.. I've made it above..
This is about how people who are not affected personally by
outrages against humanity are often vociferous in demanding
an eye for an eye, even if it's not just the guilty being blinded...
but I wanted to take the discussion a level deeper.. here's
a non-Christian teaching BY HER LIVING EXAMPLE, not just words)
the teaching of Jesus.. Turn the other cheek.
She is steeped in Islam, knows it well enough to understand that
the Wahabbists and the Iranian Shiites are perverting it.
So she has no animus towards Muslims, though she has more
'reason' to express the anger Mark does.
And don't get me wrong.. I hear the casual plans to murder
made by those gutless bastards and would not shed tears
if they all 'fell' into a tree mulcher...
But for the sake of the kids.. lets do it right, and then
do them right.
Post by B J FosterPost by fasgnadhMost of her friends held in that prison because they are Bahai's
were killed. You would think she had good cause to burn Qur'ans
and mistrust all Muslims.
But she confounds my expectations by inviting the Muslim uni
students in her block of flats in for dinner.
Very laudable, I might add.
I make no bones about it, I can't emulate that degree
of equanimity.. I yell through my windscreen when someone
just drives ineffeciently! B^D
So I'm not pretending to be ON the moral high ground..
just arguing for it..
Post by B J FosterPost by fasgnadhSomehow, she is able to tell the difference.
Or maybe she is trying to *make* a difference. Good on her!
Post by fasgnadhWhat I worry about is those that can't.. because that seems to
me to be the problem at the heart of all this hatred... these
blokes don't see us as PEOPLE any more.. and that is the poison
We don't have to put up with this shit. *We* decide who comes to this
country, remember?
Well if you have a screening tool for "terrorist"
let me know.
But having been lied into a war in Iraq, you have
some obligation to take some of the 1,000,000
refugees that were displaced.
Post by B J FosterUntil Rudd and Gillard opened the floodgates.
20,000 Arrived from Vietnam, Fraser took them in
and we have $millions in trade ties, excellent
restaurants (like Chinese food used to be, before
we turned dim sum into dim sims) and some
very pretty women. ;-)
As a country that has, like the USA, benefited MIGHTILY
from it's successive WAVES if immigration.. the blacks,
us, Italians, Greeks, Asians.. we could certainly do
with some more Persians, Iraqis.. Afghanis... and
continue to build our links to lots of nations..
Sure the IRA and Provos should have made us hesitate
to allow Brits and Irish in, but if we take the folks trying
to FLEE from tyranny and oppression we can get some pretty
good citizens out of it.
My Persian friend arrived penniless, her son is a Professor
of Finance at UNSW.
So, 2000 boat people certainly need to be screened carefully
but spare me the hysteria.. this is a trivial issue.
Post by B J FosterPost by fasgnadhPost by Addinall"AS he prepared to martyr himself by attacking the Holsworthy army
base, alleged terrorist Wissam Fattal asked his mother: "Don't you
want paradise? Don't you want your son and yourself to go to paradise
to the highest degree?"
He told her, in a telephone conversation intercepted by Australian
police in a massive operation called Operation Neath and read to a
Victorian Supreme Court jury yesterday: "This terrestrial life is
pain, mum." In the courtroom, Islamic women were dressed in the hijab.
In the dock, the five accused men, two Lebanese and three Somali, wore
suits and ties. The jury is made up of 10 men and four women.
Translated extracts from more than 100 telephone intercepts, selected
from more than 2000 that were recorded over 10 months, were read out
by crown prosecutor Nick Robinson, beginning with an intercept dated
September 30, 2008, in which Mr Fattal tells a man by the name of Aref
that he should stay in an Arabic country. "It is decadence here," he
says. "I want to get out of here.""
I would suggest to all Muslims who DON'T LIKE Australia, to get the
FUCK OUT.
Mark and the terrorists are in agreement. 8^o
There's a lot of people in this NG who don't like Australia
at the moment, reckon it elected an illegitimate government,
or some shit.. but being an Australian doesn't actually mean you
HAVE to like it, so although I do, I don't insist that those
who don't can't stay.
You are one confused individual.
Classifying terrorism as as 'opposition',
I didn't do that, Mark did.
He segued from "terrorists" to 'All Muslims who don't like
Australia" and said they should GET OUT..
so it's 'people that don't like Australia' not 'terrorists'
that are now under discussion here... do try and keep up.
otherwise you are likely to accuse me of failing to make a
distinction which Mark's hyperbole blurred and I proceeded
to sharpen, using your thick hide as a strop, apparently! B^]
I then pointed out that MANY PEOPLE 'don't like Australia'
at the moment.. "reckon it elected an illegitimate
government, or some shit.. " (is this starting to resonate
with you ;-) but being an Australian doesn't actually mean you
HAVE to like it, so although I do, I don't insist that those
who don't can't stay!
Post by B J Fostertrivialises terrorism and actually furthers it's aims.
Take that up with Mark.. he's the one that conflated
TERRORISTS with people "who don't like Australia".
I deconstructed that confusion, you falsely attributed it's
source to me.
Both of you can take a flying fuck, cobra!
I mean cobber... ..nah.. I was right the first time! B^D
Post by B J FosterLike people who classify right-wingers as Nazis, you are actually
unwittingly furthering the aims of the terrs.
I doubt Mark would deliberately do that.
I reckon he was probably just angry at the time,
possibly because those Islamofascist pseudo Muslims
have killed quite a few Aussies in various places
around the world.
It's like when I point out the terror torture
and mass murder carried out by atheist regimes,
and how they were all totalitarian tyrannies..
but that I don't hold ALL atheists responsible,
in fact I like a lot of them and admire quite a few,
Brian Eno, Phil Adams, Richard Feynman.. but then
in the heat of the moment, fighting single handedly
for a year or more against arrogant atheist's
who forge my posts, missrepresent and slander me,
with the sole aim of getting them to stop holding
Christians, and ALL religious, responsible for
the crusades or witch burnings.. I occasionally,
despite usually taking great care, make a mistatement
and blame "ALL ATHEIST LEADERS" as tyrants.
I know better.. it does not reflect my views, stated
clearly and precisely many times, but it can be taken
out of context ("All atheist leaders of atheist regimes..")
and used against me.
The tongue is a sword of fire.
Post by B J FosterThe defence of Oz *should* be a bipartisan aim but you have *sunk* to
the level of exploiting it to have a go at your beloved tories.
I don't expect you will apologise, but I believe if you
read that passage again you will see my comments on our right
to live in Australia whether we like it or not is not only
fundamentally true, but apt, in response to MARK's statement
conflating TERRORISTS with "Muslims who don't like Australia'
At that point we are no longer discussing terrorism,
but anyone, who simply does not like the country.
As i stated clearly I do, but I don't insist that, for example
indigenous folk, fucked over by gubbas for centuries, have to love it
in order to be entitled to stay.
You got it yet, gubba? You misfired, badly.
put something on that bullet wound before your foot is infected.
;-)
BTW, that doesn't change the bipartisan support
on a balanced, moderated, fair but firm fist to
SMASH MERCILESSLY... any real threat,
something I believe we share, with Mark.
Shalom and Salaam.
Post by B J FosterPost by fasgnadhIt's the fact these delusional fucktards wanted to KILL people
because they don't like it here, and don't like their targets,
that is the concern. Otherwise they could be as MISERABLE here
as they like and I wouldn't give a fuck. B^]
But the notion of killing those you don't like.. that's just
Not from the Holsworthy direction & not when you are responsible for
protecting people from these would-be killers.
I'm referring back to the conflation of terrorism with "Muslims"
(not by me! ;-)
If they had allowed them to make their attack and were waiting
with lethal force, you wouldn't have heard the word 'entrapment'
from me. B^]
I just don't want them confused with the half dozen Muslims
I know, all of whom are light years away from the Hideous
Holsworthy Halfwits. One was an Afghan Industrial Chemist
who I served with on the School Council of my local primary school.
He escaped to ensure his daughter, as well as his son, could
get an education. Lovely man. His qualifications are not
recognised here.. he did some menial job, neither he nor I thought
that diminished him in any way. Very smart man.
Another was Sherene Hassan, vice president of the Islamic council
of Victoria, who I shared a podium with, addressing some Secondary
School students. Like Walid Ali, She's an Aussie Muslim, these
people have friends in the Jewish, Christian and Bahai communities.
In Jerusalem, Kabul or Teheran they are at each others throats.
Its simply NOT about religion.. it's POLITICAL.
Here, in Oz, this blessed Oasis, their faiths are free
of those geo-political straightjackets, and the flowers
and fruits of the Spirit blossom.
I know Mark's intent wasn't incitement against the broader
group. I just like precision in language, especially
from the opinion makers, the people who have influence,
like Mark.. and even you, sometimes.. ;-)
You can all stand some fine tuning.. as you do to me. B^D
Post by B J FosterWhat if your choice is between taking out a terrorist and protecting an
innocent bystander? Would you still say "unacceptable.. from *any*
direction"?
Well, I don't want to harp on it.. but the trial is not yet
over.
At the moment they are still "the accused".
As I said.. coming at you, with harmful intent, blow the fuckers away..
On trial, give them every chance to try and defend their despicable
intent, then lock them away.. perhaps in the cells with Neo-Nazi
White Supremacists and let them debate dogmatism.
but that's not 'Muslims who don't like the country' ..is it!?
After all, that more closely fits Mohamed Haneef, than Osama Bin Lidden
or these fuckwitted but lethal wannabees on trial.
Post by B J FosterPost by fasgnadhPost by AddinallThese dicks don't need a court, throw the pukes into 6RAR or 8/9 RAR
for a day
of two way firing range meets.
Send the lot to fucking paradise...
Any reasonable reading of the Qur'an says they aren't going there.
So there must be a lot of unreasonable readings going on -
Does that surprise you?
When Jesus walked, only about 12 people in the entire world
came even halfway to the Truth.
Why would any sane person trust those who claim to
have SOLE, absolute understanding of Truth, and be certain everyone
else is wrong. In my view that makes a large number, possibly
the majority, of each faith claiming Unique possession of truth,
likely to be wrong, to a greater or lesser degree..
those who KILL in the name of their God are just CLEARLY wrong.
Have a look at the history of Wahabism, it's more a political
response to imperialism and colonialism, dressed up in the
language of the predominating value set for that region.
(Just as the Irish and British, engaged in a war over
Independence and Self Determination, each couched their
appeals to their countrymen.. naturally, in religious
terms, because that built and re-enforced national unity and
lent legitimacy, for a while, to tactics of murder and war)
The Germans and English did not go to war over religion,
but both prayed, to the SAME God, to save them from it,
and to win.
Look, at one time the Bible was used by your predecessor
Free Marketeers, to justify their trade in SLAVES. 8^o
It's an unreasonable reading, as Wilberforce, a Christian,
convinced his contemporaries.. try and make that argument
for slavery now.. based on a few out of context OT quotes!
Sure there are some fundie nutters, and some atheists
who still misunderstand the Biblical REFERENCE
to slaves as ENDORSEMENT, but that ignores the whole
PROGRESSIVE thrust of the New Testament and "Do unto others
as you would have them do unto you".
An unreasonable reading is one AGAINST the general thrust of the text.
They are common because many people are stupid and/or shallow
Post by B J Fosterjust going by
the number of terrorist attacks around the world.
Well that's interesting.
Before the 9/11 WTC attack was the first WTC attack and the
attack on the USS Coleand the US Embassies in Kenya and Tanania..
...they were about 2 years apart, hardly incessant.
Terrible, but involving very few people, out of
a Muslim population of over 1.6 billion.
And the first Al Qaida attack was in 1992, Islam had
been around for 1431 years by then.. what was it doing all
those years before terrorism.. and WHY NOW?
You are more likely to die of a car Crash,
or a coronary embolism as a result of eating
Big Macs, than a terrorist attack.
We killed, as a by-product of the Invasion of Iraq,
NOTHING TO Do WITH TERRORISM.. No Al Qaida in Iraq,
over 100,000 men women and children ostensibly in
pursuit of WMD's, then 'to remove Saddam' and install
the Shiites????
Fer fucks sake.. WHO IS THE TERRORIST in some of these
geo-political shitstorms?? and it has FUCK ALL to
do with Islam, or Christianity!
Post by B J FosterWhat do *you* propose to do about it?
Well I thought if I could at least get you thinking
about the causes we might come up with a plan.
Personally, apart from the Invasion of Iraq, which
produced an INCREASE in international terror, I believe
we have done pretty well already.
It's been 8 years since any significant attack on the USA.
The Bali Bombers were executed.
No attacks on Australian territory.
Eternal vigilance is necessary, but I'm not living in fear,
are you?
You would be, in Baghdad.
Pakistan is not looking too healthy, but hysterical
rants about "Muslims" sure as shit won't help and
it's hard to mount another "War" on Terror when this
time it would be against an Ally in the last War on terror,
although of course, this time the Muslim nation really
would have WMD's! B^D would that make you think twice,
or just reckon this time you finally got it right? B^p
I think you have heard my views already.
Support moderate Islam, befriend Muslims, become informed,
learn enough of the teachings of the Qur'an to defend Islam
from it's extremist enemies within. (Ditto fundies of all stripes,
including militant atheism), fund moderate madrassas in Indonesia,
encourage domestic Muslims, foster and protect them from bigots,
because they are the ones who will advise us of mutual
enemies in their communities, if they feel we are truly mutual!
This stuff is not rocket science.
On the defensive side, extensive surveilance, screen arrivals,
defend the borders, develop nuclear power to provide hydrogen
fuel for renewable fuel cycle to break Western dependence on Saudi
oil (well we will still need it for chemicals, pharmaceuticals
and cosmetics but at least we can continue the love affair with
automobiles without those medieval fucks.. and by loosening
their POWER we will defuse the bin Laden factor.
Most of all encourage the use of the internet in the M.E.
The more they watch American porn, the more dissolute and
weak they will become.. look at how it's depleted America! B^D
I'm supportive of Afghanistan, I was campaigning against the Taliban
BEFORE most people had discovered who they were, after 9/11.
Again, successive governments have had the bi-partisan good
sense to do what is hard. But I'm fucked if I like the toll
brave men are paying.
I'm a supporter of a strengthened UN, without the Security Council
Veto.
I'd like to see a few Blue and White Battalions of troops
from Muslim and Arab nations, under UN auspices, to be
stationed in Afghanistan to keep the peace. Not us.
That would remove the propaganda line the Taliban run that "Crusader
infidels are occupying Muslim land.." which according to Pape,
expert on terror, is THE driving force in Islamic terrorism.
But no one supports a global police force to enforce the peace,
yet.
The Invasion of Afghanistan was under a UN covenant, and like
our role in Timor, these things count.
The invasion of Iraq was idiocy, but we now have an obligation
to try and stabilise the mess we made, although there is no
recovery from making Iran the ruling hegemon. B^[
Mostly I propose to challenge Christians, Jews,
Sikhs, Bahai, Hindu and Muslims to FOLLOW THEIR TEACHINGS..
Post by B J FosterPost by fasgnadhMore likely 25 years hard labour, on each count, perhaps in
that time they might discover what their book says;
"Whosoever kills even one human being, other than for man
slaughter or tyranny on earth, it would be as if they had
killed all of humanity. And whosoever saves even one human life,
it will be as if they have saved all of humankind"
- Qur'an Sura 5:35
No one who TRULY believes that, can strap on a bomb!
The Prophet Mohammed(PBUH) condemns their actions!!
