Discussion:
Can Islam be reformed?
(too old to reply)
A***@somewhere.com
2004-01-09 04:43:56 UTC
Permalink
Can Islam be reformed?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina31119.htm
By: Ali Sina

When the US Secretary of State Colin Powel said Islam is not incompatible
with democracy, the spokesman of the Islamic Republic of Iran Hamid Reza
Asefi mocked him and said "US officials' comments on Islam clearly prove
they do know nothing about Islam and Muslims.

If Asefi has said only one word of truth in his entire life, this is it.

Today the question that everyone asks is whether Islam can be reformed and
whether it can accommodate the democracy.

A friend of mine wrote: "Pentateuch is very similar to the Quran: same
intolerance, same draconian laws, etc. yet the great part of the Jews
finally rejected the literal interpretation of their holy scriptures and
proved they could evolve."

Also Christianity has allowed for change, The Church of the 16th century was
as repressive as the Talibans and the Wahhabis. Yet Reformation took place,
nonetheless. And even the Catholic Church is finally opening up.

Can't then we extrapolate that the same could happen to Islam?

The idea that since Christianity and Judaism reformed then Islam can also be
reformed is untenable. Islam is not comparable to Christianity, Judaism or
any other religion.

Christianity is essentially a religion of the heart. It were statements such
as "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" and "My kingdom is not of this
world" that allowed the Christians to keep their faith while permitting
secular governments to evolve independent of the Church. A Christian does
not feel any contradiction or dichotomy by living with secular laws and
practicing his religious beliefs. One can be a Christian in his heart and
secular in politics. Therefore reform in Christianity did not mean
renouncing faith.

There are very few Jews who believe that the Pentateuch is actually the word
of God. In all the five books attributed to Moses, he is referred to in
third person. Then the Deuteronomy ends by giving an obituary about Moses
and how his tomb has been lost. This allows the Jews to be open about the
interpretation of the Bible as it is clear, at least to the thinking
majority of them, that the Bible is not the textual word of God but written
by humans, who were allegedly inspired, yet fallible nonetheless.

Also living in Diaspora for 2000 years with no temporal authority has forced
the Jews to learn how to adapt their Jewish laws (Halakhah) to the
exigencies of the non-Jewish world, which allows them now to create a
secular state in a country built through religious imperatives.

However, reforming Islam is not something that a Muslim would consider.
Those who ask such question are always the non-Muslims. For a Muslim this
question is pointless. The thought of reform would not even pass the mind of
a Muslim. He would tell you that the problem with Islamic world is in the
inadequate interpretation of the Sharia and not in the Sharia itself.

Quran is considered to be the verbatim words of God. The verse "This day I
have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you, and have
chosen for you Islam as your religion" 5:3 reverberates in the ears of every
Muslim. It leaves no room for interpretations and reformations. How can
anyone improve or change something that is perfect?

History shows that all attempts to reform Islam have failed. The Sufis tried
to interpret the Quran esoterically and mystically. The Mu'tazelis went as
far as to suggest that if there is a contradiction between the revelation
and reason the latter should prevail. Some modern day Islamists such as Ali
Shariati and Sorush have tried to use Islam as a political tool to bring
Islamic world out of the dark ages and into the modern world. However all
these attempts have failed and Islam is now in it darkest phase of its
existence. As a matter of fact every time Islam is taken into equation, even
nominally, for a social change the result is catastrophic because the
gravitational pull of the Quran towards fundamentalism quashes every other
consideration. Quran cannot be interpreted and reformed. The will of God
cannot be surpassed by the will of people because of convenience and
expediency. Any minor deviation from the Quran is considered to be a direct
challenge to its authority and it invalidates the entire faith.

Islam is considered to be a "complete way of life"

This concept is eloquently explained in the Islamic site Islamonline.net

"Islam is not a religion in the common, distorted meaning of the word,
confining its scope only to the private life of man. By saying that it is a
complete way of life, we mean that it caters for all the fields of human
existence. In fact, Islam provides guidance for all walks of life -
individual and social, material and moral, economic and political, legal and
cultural, national and international.

The Qur'an enjoins Man to enter the fold of Islam without any reservation
and to follow God's guidance in all fields of life."

In Islam politics and faith are intertwined. The separation of the two would
mean the end of faith. In criticism of Christianity the above site
continues: .

"Religion asks us to separate things of God from those of Caesar. Such a
judicial separation between the two means the degrading of both the secular
and the sacred. That religion is worth little, if the conscience of its
followers is not disturbed when war clouds are hanging over us all and
industrial conflicts are threatening social peace. Religion has weakened Man
's social conscience and moral sensitivity, by separating the things of God
from those of Caesar."

As for Islam, it totally denounces this concept of religion and clearly
states that its objectives are purification of the soul and the reform and
reconstruction of the society. "

The Qur'an says in Surah 57, verse 25:

We verily sent Our messengers with clear proofs and revealed with them the
scripture and the balance [i.e. the authority to establish justice], that
mankind may observe justice and the right measure.

Then in Surah 12, verse 40:

The command is for none but Allah; He has commanded that you obey none but
Him; that is the right path.

Also, in Surah 22, verse 41:

[Muslims are] those who if We give them power in the land, establish [the
system of] salat (prayers and worship) and zakat (poor due) and enjoin
virtue and forbid vice and evil."

"Thus, even a cursory study of the teachings of Islam shows that it is an
all-embracing way of life and does not leave out any field of human
existence to become a playground for satanic forces."

That is true. A Muslim is supposed to get religious instructions about
everything. Even with which foot he ought to enter the toilet, which
direction to face, which foot to put his weight on during defecation and how
many rocks to use for cleaning purposes are topics that the foqaha, "the
doctors of the law" study for years to master and then guide the ummah who
in turn would not lift a finger without consulting such doctors.

Addressing the problem of Sharia for a Muslim is considered heresy. The
so-called moderate Muslims do not propose to scrap or change the Sharia. So,
what a moderate Muslim would say about the law of stoning? He would deny
that this is an Islamic law and he would challenge you to find such a thing
in the Quran. He is right! Stoning does not exist in the Quran. But it
exists in the Sunnah and the Sunnah (Muhammad's own examples) is the major
source of the Sharia law.

In Islam if there is no specific reference to a law, the Judaic law should
apply. Stoning the adulterers is a law prescribed in Deuteronomy 22:23, and
the prophet practiced stoning of adulterers as per various hadiths. (1, 2,
3)

As the Imam of IslamOnline.net rightly states, Islam is not a religion at
all. Islam is politics. Islam's only objective is to reclaim the Earth for
Allah and establish the rule of Sharia. You take away that objective and
Islam as a whole becomes meaningless. It simply loses its raison d'être.
While Christ wanted to conquer the hearts of the people, Muhammad could care
less about people's hearts. He was interested in conquering cities and
establishing the dominion of Islam in the name of God.

The very word Islam means submission. The first duty of a Muslim is to
strive (make Jihad) and render the world submissive to Allah and his
messenger.

Ironically, the word peace in Islam, also derive from the same root SLM,
does not mean mutual and harmonious coexistence of two equal and sovereign
people. It means suppressing the non-Muslims and making them submissive to
the rule and dominance of Islam. Islam does not recognize the legitimacy of
any non-Islamic government especially over the Muslims.

"Yea, to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth; 24.42 and,
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never
will it be accepted of him" 3:85. Muslims are pressed to "fight them [the
infidels] on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail
justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere" 8:39,.

It must be noted that tumult and oppression means resisting the advance of
Islam. Justice and peace can only prevail when Islam becomes dominant and
other religions are subdued and their followers are reduced to tributaries
to the coffers of the Islamic state. They must "pay the Jizya with willing
submission, and feel themselves subdued".9:29.

I strongly disagree with those who compare Islam of today with the
Christianity of the Middle Ages and claim that since Christianity eventually
was reformed, Islam can also reform.

The proponents of reform have a very weak position to defend. Daniel Pipes
is one such scholar who believes, at least ostensibly, that Islam can be
reformed. The weakness of his position is picked up by his opponents who
rightly say, "Dr. Pipes seems to contradict himself. First he says that
there is nothing in Islam that contradicts democracy and then insists that
Sharia is antidemocratic."

Muslims are supposed to give their highest allegiance to Islam, not to their
country and not even to their family. The scope is not as much to convert
the world into Islam but to dominate the world and to establish the law of
Sharia.

As a matter of fact when a Muslim army invaded a country, they did not
accept the conversion of the conquered right away. This would have deprived
them of the booty and to excise the Jizyah tax, which was the main incentive
of the Muslims to attack in the first place. The conquered people were left
to practice their religion for centuries providing the wealth for the
Islamic empire and finance the Islamic army to continue with their
conquests. As the following hadith shows the Muslims would provide
"protection" for the people of other religions, i.e. would not kill them,
under the condition that they pay the jizyah which as Umar said was fixed by
Allah as stipends for Muslims.

Sunnan Abu Dawud Book 19, Number 2955:

"According to the saying of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him): Allah has
placed truth upon Umar's tongue and heart. He fixed stipends for Muslims,
and provided protection for the people of other religions by levying jizyah
(poll-tax) on them, deducting no fifth from it, nor taking it as booty.

Therefore when Muslims say that Islam is a tolerant religion, which allows
the non-Muslims to keep their faith and practice their religion, in a sense
they are telling the truth. However, that freedom has a catch and that is to
accept the status of dhimitude, become subservient to Muslims and "pay the
Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"

According to Muslim scholars, the verse 9:23 of the Quran that instructs the
Muslims not to take the infidels as their awlia (protectors, custodians,
rulers) implies that Muslims should not accept the rule and the governance
of non-Muslims. Hence they are required to overthrow the non-Islamic
governments, whenever they are able to and wherever they reside to establish
Islamic governments. Until then that country is considered to be Dar al Harb
(House of war). When the governance of the country is turned over to the
Muslims, that country becomes Dar al Islam (House of Islam) and Sharia
becomes the law of the land. This does not mean that everyone will be forced
to convert to Islam. It means that everyone becomes subject to Sharia and
those who are not believers will be classified as dhimmis, will have to pay
Jizyah and support the Ummah financially.

--

JimB
http://www.geocities.com/UAM01
Union Against Multi-Culty
Roger
2004-01-08 12:52:46 UTC
Permalink
"Faith Freedom" questions whether Islam can be "reformed."

Freedom for their idea of faith only.
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Can Islam be reformed?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina31119.htm
By: Ali Sina
When the US Secretary of State Colin Powel said Islam is not incompatible
with democracy, the spokesman of the Islamic Republic of Iran Hamid Reza
Asefi mocked him and said "US officials' comments on Islam clearly prove
they do know nothing about Islam and Muslims.
If Asefi has said only one word of truth in his entire life, this is it.
Today the question that everyone asks is whether Islam can be reformed and
whether it can accommodate the democracy.
A friend of mine wrote: "Pentateuch is very similar to the Quran: same
intolerance, same draconian laws, etc. yet the great part of the Jews
finally rejected the literal interpretation of their holy scriptures and
proved they could evolve."
Also Christianity has allowed for change, The Church of the 16th century was
as repressive as the Talibans and the Wahhabis. Yet Reformation took place,
nonetheless. And even the Catholic Church is finally opening up.
Can't then we extrapolate that the same could happen to Islam?
The idea that since Christianity and Judaism reformed then Islam can also be
reformed is untenable. Islam is not comparable to Christianity, Judaism or
any other religion.
Christianity is essentially a religion of the heart. It were statements such
as "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" and "My kingdom is not of this
world" that allowed the Christians to keep their faith while permitting
secular governments to evolve independent of the Church. A Christian does
not feel any contradiction or dichotomy by living with secular laws and
practicing his religious beliefs. One can be a Christian in his heart and
secular in politics. Therefore reform in Christianity did not mean
renouncing faith.
There are very few Jews who believe that the Pentateuch is actually the word
of God. In all the five books attributed to Moses, he is referred to in
third person. Then the Deuteronomy ends by giving an obituary about Moses
and how his tomb has been lost. This allows the Jews to be open about the
interpretation of the Bible as it is clear, at least to the thinking
majority of them, that the Bible is not the textual word of God but written
by humans, who were allegedly inspired, yet fallible nonetheless.
Also living in Diaspora for 2000 years with no temporal authority has forced
the Jews to learn how to adapt their Jewish laws (Halakhah) to the
exigencies of the non-Jewish world, which allows them now to create a
secular state in a country built through religious imperatives.
However, reforming Islam is not something that a Muslim would consider.
Those who ask such question are always the non-Muslims. For a Muslim this
question is pointless. The thought of reform would not even pass the mind of
a Muslim. He would tell you that the problem with Islamic world is in the
inadequate interpretation of the Sharia and not in the Sharia itself.
Quran is considered to be the verbatim words of God. The verse "This day I
have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you, and have
chosen for you Islam as your religion" 5:3 reverberates in the ears of every
Muslim. It leaves no room for interpretations and reformations. How can
anyone improve or change something that is perfect?
History shows that all attempts to reform Islam have failed. The Sufis tried
to interpret the Quran esoterically and mystically. The Mu'tazelis went as
far as to suggest that if there is a contradiction between the revelation
and reason the latter should prevail. Some modern day Islamists such as Ali
Shariati and Sorush have tried to use Islam as a political tool to bring
Islamic world out of the dark ages and into the modern world. However all
these attempts have failed and Islam is now in it darkest phase of its
existence. As a matter of fact every time Islam is taken into equation, even
nominally, for a social change the result is catastrophic because the
gravitational pull of the Quran towards fundamentalism quashes every other
consideration. Quran cannot be interpreted and reformed. The will of God
cannot be surpassed by the will of people because of convenience and
expediency. Any minor deviation from the Quran is considered to be a direct
challenge to its authority and it invalidates the entire faith.
Islam is considered to be a "complete way of life"
This concept is eloquently explained in the Islamic site Islamonline.net
"Islam is not a religion in the common, distorted meaning of the word,
confining its scope only to the private life of man. By saying that it is a
complete way of life, we mean that it caters for all the fields of human
existence. In fact, Islam provides guidance for all walks of life -
individual and social, material and moral, economic and political, legal and
cultural, national and international.
The Qur'an enjoins Man to enter the fold of Islam without any reservation
and to follow God's guidance in all fields of life."
In Islam politics and faith are intertwined. The separation of the two would
mean the end of faith. In criticism of Christianity the above site
continues: .
"Religion asks us to separate things of God from those of Caesar. Such a
judicial separation between the two means the degrading of both the secular
and the sacred. That religion is worth little, if the conscience of its
followers is not disturbed when war clouds are hanging over us all and
industrial conflicts are threatening social peace. Religion has weakened Man
's social conscience and moral sensitivity, by separating the things of God
from those of Caesar."
As for Islam, it totally denounces this concept of religion and clearly
states that its objectives are purification of the soul and the reform and
reconstruction of the society. "
We verily sent Our messengers with clear proofs and revealed with them the
scripture and the balance [i.e. the authority to establish justice], that
mankind may observe justice and the right measure.
The command is for none but Allah; He has commanded that you obey none but
Him; that is the right path.
[Muslims are] those who if We give them power in the land, establish [the
system of] salat (prayers and worship) and zakat (poor due) and enjoin
virtue and forbid vice and evil."
"Thus, even a cursory study of the teachings of Islam shows that it is an
all-embracing way of life and does not leave out any field of human
existence to become a playground for satanic forces."
That is true. A Muslim is supposed to get religious instructions about
everything. Even with which foot he ought to enter the toilet, which
direction to face, which foot to put his weight on during defecation and how
many rocks to use for cleaning purposes are topics that the foqaha, "the
doctors of the law" study for years to master and then guide the ummah who
in turn would not lift a finger without consulting such doctors.
Addressing the problem of Sharia for a Muslim is considered heresy. The
so-called moderate Muslims do not propose to scrap or change the Sharia. So,
what a moderate Muslim would say about the law of stoning? He would deny
that this is an Islamic law and he would challenge you to find such a thing
in the Quran. He is right! Stoning does not exist in the Quran. But it
exists in the Sunnah and the Sunnah (Muhammad's own examples) is the major
source of the Sharia law.
In Islam if there is no specific reference to a law, the Judaic law should
apply. Stoning the adulterers is a law prescribed in Deuteronomy 22:23, and
the prophet practiced stoning of adulterers as per various hadiths. (1,
2,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
3)
As the Imam of IslamOnline.net rightly states, Islam is not a religion at
all. Islam is politics. Islam's only objective is to reclaim the Earth for
Allah and establish the rule of Sharia. You take away that objective and
Islam as a whole becomes meaningless. It simply loses its raison d'être.
While Christ wanted to conquer the hearts of the people, Muhammad could care
less about people's hearts. He was interested in conquering cities and
establishing the dominion of Islam in the name of God.
The very word Islam means submission. The first duty of a Muslim is to
strive (make Jihad) and render the world submissive to Allah and his
messenger.
Ironically, the word peace in Islam, also derive from the same root SLM,
does not mean mutual and harmonious coexistence of two equal and sovereign
people. It means suppressing the non-Muslims and making them submissive to
the rule and dominance of Islam. Islam does not recognize the legitimacy of
any non-Islamic government especially over the Muslims.
"Yea, to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth; 24.42 and,
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never
will it be accepted of him" 3:85. Muslims are pressed to "fight them [the
infidels] on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail
justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere" 8:39,.
It must be noted that tumult and oppression means resisting the advance of
Islam. Justice and peace can only prevail when Islam becomes dominant and
other religions are subdued and their followers are reduced to tributaries
to the coffers of the Islamic state. They must "pay the Jizya with willing
submission, and feel themselves subdued".9:29.
I strongly disagree with those who compare Islam of today with the
Christianity of the Middle Ages and claim that since Christianity eventually
was reformed, Islam can also reform.
The proponents of reform have a very weak position to defend. Daniel Pipes
is one such scholar who believes, at least ostensibly, that Islam can be
reformed. The weakness of his position is picked up by his opponents who
rightly say, "Dr. Pipes seems to contradict himself. First he says that
there is nothing in Islam that contradicts democracy and then insists that
Sharia is antidemocratic."
Muslims are supposed to give their highest allegiance to Islam, not to their
country and not even to their family. The scope is not as much to convert
the world into Islam but to dominate the world and to establish the law of
Sharia.
As a matter of fact when a Muslim army invaded a country, they did not
accept the conversion of the conquered right away. This would have deprived
them of the booty and to excise the Jizyah tax, which was the main incentive
of the Muslims to attack in the first place. The conquered people were left
to practice their religion for centuries providing the wealth for the
Islamic empire and finance the Islamic army to continue with their
conquests. As the following hadith shows the Muslims would provide
"protection" for the people of other religions, i.e. would not kill them,
under the condition that they pay the jizyah which as Umar said was fixed by
Allah as stipends for Muslims.
"According to the saying of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him): Allah has
placed truth upon Umar's tongue and heart. He fixed stipends for Muslims,
and provided protection for the people of other religions by levying jizyah
(poll-tax) on them, deducting no fifth from it, nor taking it as booty.
Therefore when Muslims say that Islam is a tolerant religion, which allows
the non-Muslims to keep their faith and practice their religion, in a sense
they are telling the truth. However, that freedom has a catch and that is to
accept the status of dhimitude, become subservient to Muslims and "pay the
Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"
According to Muslim scholars, the verse 9:23 of the Quran that instructs the
Muslims not to take the infidels as their awlia (protectors, custodians,
rulers) implies that Muslims should not accept the rule and the governance
of non-Muslims. Hence they are required to overthrow the non-Islamic
governments, whenever they are able to and wherever they reside to establish
Islamic governments. Until then that country is considered to be Dar al Harb
(House of war). When the governance of the country is turned over to the
Muslims, that country becomes Dar al Islam (House of Islam) and Sharia
becomes the law of the land. This does not mean that everyone will be forced
to convert to Islam. It means that everyone becomes subject to Sharia and
those who are not believers will be classified as dhimmis, will have to pay
Jizyah and support the Ummah financially.
--
JimB
http://www.geocities.com/UAM01
Union Against Multi-Culty
Jon
2004-01-08 16:36:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger
"Faith Freedom" questions whether Islam can be "reformed."
Freedom for their idea of faith only.
FaithFreedom is a site established by Ali Sina who grew up as a Muslim
and left the religion (committed apostacy). The site's name draws
attention to the Islamic penalty for Apostacy, which is of course
death.

The site does not endorse any religion whatsoever, juding by Ali's
posts in the forum I'd say he's Agnostic, perhaps even atheist.
--
Jon
Torpedo
2004-01-08 12:28:53 UTC
Permalink
Please cross-post these to more relevant groups like soc.culture.bangladesh,
soc.culture.pakistan etc. for response floods.
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Can Islam be reformed?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina31119.htm
By: Ali Sina
When the US Secretary of State Colin Powel said Islam is not incompatible
with democracy, the spokesman of the Islamic Republic of Iran Hamid Reza
Asefi mocked him and said "US officials' comments on Islam clearly prove
they do know nothing about Islam and Muslims.
If Asefi has said only one word of truth in his entire life, this is it.
Today the question that everyone asks is whether Islam can be reformed and
whether it can accommodate the democracy.
A friend of mine wrote: "Pentateuch is very similar to the Quran: same
intolerance, same draconian laws, etc. yet the great part of the Jews
finally rejected the literal interpretation of their holy scriptures and
proved they could evolve."
Also Christianity has allowed for change, The Church of the 16th century was
as repressive as the Talibans and the Wahhabis. Yet Reformation took place,
nonetheless. And even the Catholic Church is finally opening up.
Can't then we extrapolate that the same could happen to Islam?
The idea that since Christianity and Judaism reformed then Islam can also be
reformed is untenable. Islam is not comparable to Christianity, Judaism or
any other religion.
Christianity is essentially a religion of the heart. It were statements such
as "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" and "My kingdom is not of this
world" that allowed the Christians to keep their faith while permitting
secular governments to evolve independent of the Church. A Christian does
not feel any contradiction or dichotomy by living with secular laws and
practicing his religious beliefs. One can be a Christian in his heart and
secular in politics. Therefore reform in Christianity did not mean
renouncing faith.
There are very few Jews who believe that the Pentateuch is actually the word
of God. In all the five books attributed to Moses, he is referred to in
third person. Then the Deuteronomy ends by giving an obituary about Moses
and how his tomb has been lost. This allows the Jews to be open about the
interpretation of the Bible as it is clear, at least to the thinking
majority of them, that the Bible is not the textual word of God but written
by humans, who were allegedly inspired, yet fallible nonetheless.
Also living in Diaspora for 2000 years with no temporal authority has forced
the Jews to learn how to adapt their Jewish laws (Halakhah) to the
exigencies of the non-Jewish world, which allows them now to create a
secular state in a country built through religious imperatives.
However, reforming Islam is not something that a Muslim would consider.
Those who ask such question are always the non-Muslims. For a Muslim this
question is pointless. The thought of reform would not even pass the mind of
a Muslim. He would tell you that the problem with Islamic world is in the
inadequate interpretation of the Sharia and not in the Sharia itself.
Quran is considered to be the verbatim words of God. The verse "This day I
have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you, and have
chosen for you Islam as your religion" 5:3 reverberates in the ears of every
Muslim. It leaves no room for interpretations and reformations. How can
anyone improve or change something that is perfect?
History shows that all attempts to reform Islam have failed. The Sufis tried
to interpret the Quran esoterically and mystically. The Mu'tazelis went as
far as to suggest that if there is a contradiction between the revelation
and reason the latter should prevail. Some modern day Islamists such as Ali
Shariati and Sorush have tried to use Islam as a political tool to bring
Islamic world out of the dark ages and into the modern world. However all
these attempts have failed and Islam is now in it darkest phase of its
existence. As a matter of fact every time Islam is taken into equation, even
nominally, for a social change the result is catastrophic because the
gravitational pull of the Quran towards fundamentalism quashes every other
consideration. Quran cannot be interpreted and reformed. The will of God
cannot be surpassed by the will of people because of convenience and
expediency. Any minor deviation from the Quran is considered to be a direct
challenge to its authority and it invalidates the entire faith.
Islam is considered to be a "complete way of life"
This concept is eloquently explained in the Islamic site Islamonline.net
"Islam is not a religion in the common, distorted meaning of the word,
confining its scope only to the private life of man. By saying that it is a
complete way of life, we mean that it caters for all the fields of human
existence. In fact, Islam provides guidance for all walks of life -
individual and social, material and moral, economic and political, legal and
cultural, national and international.
The Qur'an enjoins Man to enter the fold of Islam without any reservation
and to follow God's guidance in all fields of life."
In Islam politics and faith are intertwined. The separation of the two would
mean the end of faith. In criticism of Christianity the above site
continues: .
"Religion asks us to separate things of God from those of Caesar. Such a
judicial separation between the two means the degrading of both the secular
and the sacred. That religion is worth little, if the conscience of its
followers is not disturbed when war clouds are hanging over us all and
industrial conflicts are threatening social peace. Religion has weakened Man
's social conscience and moral sensitivity, by separating the things of God
from those of Caesar."
As for Islam, it totally denounces this concept of religion and clearly
states that its objectives are purification of the soul and the reform and
reconstruction of the society. "
We verily sent Our messengers with clear proofs and revealed with them the
scripture and the balance [i.e. the authority to establish justice], that
mankind may observe justice and the right measure.
The command is for none but Allah; He has commanded that you obey none but
Him; that is the right path.
[Muslims are] those who if We give them power in the land, establish [the
system of] salat (prayers and worship) and zakat (poor due) and enjoin
virtue and forbid vice and evil."
"Thus, even a cursory study of the teachings of Islam shows that it is an
all-embracing way of life and does not leave out any field of human
existence to become a playground for satanic forces."
That is true. A Muslim is supposed to get religious instructions about
everything. Even with which foot he ought to enter the toilet, which
direction to face, which foot to put his weight on during defecation and how
many rocks to use for cleaning purposes are topics that the foqaha, "the
doctors of the law" study for years to master and then guide the ummah who
in turn would not lift a finger without consulting such doctors.
Addressing the problem of Sharia for a Muslim is considered heresy. The
so-called moderate Muslims do not propose to scrap or change the Sharia. So,
what a moderate Muslim would say about the law of stoning? He would deny
that this is an Islamic law and he would challenge you to find such a thing
in the Quran. He is right! Stoning does not exist in the Quran. But it
exists in the Sunnah and the Sunnah (Muhammad's own examples) is the major
source of the Sharia law.
In Islam if there is no specific reference to a law, the Judaic law should
apply. Stoning the adulterers is a law prescribed in Deuteronomy 22:23, and
the prophet practiced stoning of adulterers as per various hadiths. (1,
2,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
3)
As the Imam of IslamOnline.net rightly states, Islam is not a religion at
all. Islam is politics. Islam's only objective is to reclaim the Earth for
Allah and establish the rule of Sharia. You take away that objective and
Islam as a whole becomes meaningless. It simply loses its raison d'être.
While Christ wanted to conquer the hearts of the people, Muhammad could care
less about people's hearts. He was interested in conquering cities and
establishing the dominion of Islam in the name of God.
The very word Islam means submission. The first duty of a Muslim is to
strive (make Jihad) and render the world submissive to Allah and his
messenger.
Ironically, the word peace in Islam, also derive from the same root SLM,
does not mean mutual and harmonious coexistence of two equal and sovereign
people. It means suppressing the non-Muslims and making them submissive to
the rule and dominance of Islam. Islam does not recognize the legitimacy of
any non-Islamic government especially over the Muslims.
"Yea, to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth; 24.42 and,
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never
will it be accepted of him" 3:85. Muslims are pressed to "fight them [the
infidels] on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail
justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere" 8:39,.
It must be noted that tumult and oppression means resisting the advance of
Islam. Justice and peace can only prevail when Islam becomes dominant and
other religions are subdued and their followers are reduced to tributaries
to the coffers of the Islamic state. They must "pay the Jizya with willing
submission, and feel themselves subdued".9:29.
I strongly disagree with those who compare Islam of today with the
Christianity of the Middle Ages and claim that since Christianity eventually
was reformed, Islam can also reform.
The proponents of reform have a very weak position to defend. Daniel Pipes
is one such scholar who believes, at least ostensibly, that Islam can be
reformed. The weakness of his position is picked up by his opponents who
rightly say, "Dr. Pipes seems to contradict himself. First he says that
there is nothing in Islam that contradicts democracy and then insists that
Sharia is antidemocratic."
Muslims are supposed to give their highest allegiance to Islam, not to their
country and not even to their family. The scope is not as much to convert
the world into Islam but to dominate the world and to establish the law of
Sharia.
As a matter of fact when a Muslim army invaded a country, they did not
accept the conversion of the conquered right away. This would have deprived
them of the booty and to excise the Jizyah tax, which was the main incentive
of the Muslims to attack in the first place. The conquered people were left
to practice their religion for centuries providing the wealth for the
Islamic empire and finance the Islamic army to continue with their
conquests. As the following hadith shows the Muslims would provide
"protection" for the people of other religions, i.e. would not kill them,
under the condition that they pay the jizyah which as Umar said was fixed by
Allah as stipends for Muslims.
"According to the saying of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him): Allah has
placed truth upon Umar's tongue and heart. He fixed stipends for Muslims,
and provided protection for the people of other religions by levying jizyah
(poll-tax) on them, deducting no fifth from it, nor taking it as booty.
Therefore when Muslims say that Islam is a tolerant religion, which allows
the non-Muslims to keep their faith and practice their religion, in a sense
they are telling the truth. However, that freedom has a catch and that is to
accept the status of dhimitude, become subservient to Muslims and "pay the
Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"
According to Muslim scholars, the verse 9:23 of the Quran that instructs the
Muslims not to take the infidels as their awlia (protectors, custodians,
rulers) implies that Muslims should not accept the rule and the governance
of non-Muslims. Hence they are required to overthrow the non-Islamic
governments, whenever they are able to and wherever they reside to establish
Islamic governments. Until then that country is considered to be Dar al Harb
(House of war). When the governance of the country is turned over to the
Muslims, that country becomes Dar al Islam (House of Islam) and Sharia
becomes the law of the land. This does not mean that everyone will be forced
to convert to Islam. It means that everyone becomes subject to Sharia and
those who are not believers will be classified as dhimmis, will have to pay
Jizyah and support the Ummah financially.
--
JimB
http://www.geocities.com/UAM01
Union Against Multi-Culty
Roger
2004-01-09 01:05:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Torpedo
Please cross-post these to more relevant groups like
soc.culture.bangladesh,
Post by Torpedo
soc.culture.pakistan etc. for response floods.
He's a racist scumbag. You're expecting him to be polite?
Post by Torpedo
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Can Islam be reformed?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina31119.htm
By: Ali Sina
When the US Secretary of State Colin Powel said Islam is not
incompatible
Post by Torpedo
Post by A***@somewhere.com
with democracy, the spokesman of the Islamic Republic of Iran Hamid Reza
Asefi mocked him and said "US officials' comments on Islam clearly prove
they do know nothing about Islam and Muslims.
If Asefi has said only one word of truth in his entire life, this is it.
Today the question that everyone asks is whether Islam can be reformed and
whether it can accommodate the democracy.
A friend of mine wrote: "Pentateuch is very similar to the Quran: same
intolerance, same draconian laws, etc. yet the great part of the Jews
finally rejected the literal interpretation of their holy scriptures and
proved they could evolve."
Also Christianity has allowed for change, The Church of the 16th century
was
Post by A***@somewhere.com
as repressive as the Talibans and the Wahhabis. Yet Reformation took
place,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
nonetheless. And even the Catholic Church is finally opening up.
Can't then we extrapolate that the same could happen to Islam?
The idea that since Christianity and Judaism reformed then Islam can
also
Post by Torpedo
be
Post by A***@somewhere.com
reformed is untenable. Islam is not comparable to Christianity, Judaism or
any other religion.
Christianity is essentially a religion of the heart. It were statements
such
Post by A***@somewhere.com
as "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" and "My kingdom is not of this
world" that allowed the Christians to keep their faith while permitting
secular governments to evolve independent of the Church. A Christian does
not feel any contradiction or dichotomy by living with secular laws and
practicing his religious beliefs. One can be a Christian in his heart and
secular in politics. Therefore reform in Christianity did not mean
renouncing faith.
There are very few Jews who believe that the Pentateuch is actually the
word
Post by A***@somewhere.com
of God. In all the five books attributed to Moses, he is referred to in
third person. Then the Deuteronomy ends by giving an obituary about Moses
and how his tomb has been lost. This allows the Jews to be open about the
interpretation of the Bible as it is clear, at least to the thinking
majority of them, that the Bible is not the textual word of God but
written
Post by A***@somewhere.com
by humans, who were allegedly inspired, yet fallible nonetheless.
Also living in Diaspora for 2000 years with no temporal authority has
forced
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the Jews to learn how to adapt their Jewish laws (Halakhah) to the
exigencies of the non-Jewish world, which allows them now to create a
secular state in a country built through religious imperatives.
However, reforming Islam is not something that a Muslim would consider.
Those who ask such question are always the non-Muslims. For a Muslim this
question is pointless. The thought of reform would not even pass the
mind
Post by Torpedo
of
Post by A***@somewhere.com
a Muslim. He would tell you that the problem with Islamic world is in the
inadequate interpretation of the Sharia and not in the Sharia itself.
Quran is considered to be the verbatim words of God. The verse "This day I
have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you, and
have
Post by A***@somewhere.com
chosen for you Islam as your religion" 5:3 reverberates in the ears of
every
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Muslim. It leaves no room for interpretations and reformations. How can
anyone improve or change something that is perfect?
History shows that all attempts to reform Islam have failed. The Sufis
tried
Post by A***@somewhere.com
to interpret the Quran esoterically and mystically. The Mu'tazelis went as
far as to suggest that if there is a contradiction between the revelation
and reason the latter should prevail. Some modern day Islamists such as
Ali
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Shariati and Sorush have tried to use Islam as a political tool to bring
Islamic world out of the dark ages and into the modern world. However all
these attempts have failed and Islam is now in it darkest phase of its
existence. As a matter of fact every time Islam is taken into equation,
even
Post by A***@somewhere.com
nominally, for a social change the result is catastrophic because the
gravitational pull of the Quran towards fundamentalism quashes every other
consideration. Quran cannot be interpreted and reformed. The will of God
cannot be surpassed by the will of people because of convenience and
expediency. Any minor deviation from the Quran is considered to be a
direct
Post by A***@somewhere.com
challenge to its authority and it invalidates the entire faith.
Islam is considered to be a "complete way of life"
This concept is eloquently explained in the Islamic site Islamonline.net
"Islam is not a religion in the common, distorted meaning of the word,
confining its scope only to the private life of man. By saying that it
is
Post by Torpedo
a
Post by A***@somewhere.com
complete way of life, we mean that it caters for all the fields of human
existence. In fact, Islam provides guidance for all walks of life -
individual and social, material and moral, economic and political, legal
and
Post by A***@somewhere.com
cultural, national and international.
The Qur'an enjoins Man to enter the fold of Islam without any reservation
and to follow God's guidance in all fields of life."
In Islam politics and faith are intertwined. The separation of the two
would
Post by A***@somewhere.com
mean the end of faith. In criticism of Christianity the above site
continues: .
"Religion asks us to separate things of God from those of Caesar. Such a
judicial separation between the two means the degrading of both the
secular
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and the sacred. That religion is worth little, if the conscience of its
followers is not disturbed when war clouds are hanging over us all and
industrial conflicts are threatening social peace. Religion has weakened
Man
Post by A***@somewhere.com
's social conscience and moral sensitivity, by separating the things of
God
Post by A***@somewhere.com
from those of Caesar."
As for Islam, it totally denounces this concept of religion and clearly
states that its objectives are purification of the soul and the reform and
reconstruction of the society. "
We verily sent Our messengers with clear proofs and revealed with them the
scripture and the balance [i.e. the authority to establish justice], that
mankind may observe justice and the right measure.
The command is for none but Allah; He has commanded that you obey none but
Him; that is the right path.
[Muslims are] those who if We give them power in the land, establish [the
system of] salat (prayers and worship) and zakat (poor due) and enjoin
virtue and forbid vice and evil."
"Thus, even a cursory study of the teachings of Islam shows that it is an
all-embracing way of life and does not leave out any field of human
existence to become a playground for satanic forces."
That is true. A Muslim is supposed to get religious instructions about
everything. Even with which foot he ought to enter the toilet, which
direction to face, which foot to put his weight on during defecation and
how
Post by A***@somewhere.com
many rocks to use for cleaning purposes are topics that the foqaha, "the
doctors of the law" study for years to master and then guide the ummah who
in turn would not lift a finger without consulting such doctors.
Addressing the problem of Sharia for a Muslim is considered heresy. The
so-called moderate Muslims do not propose to scrap or change the Sharia.
So,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
what a moderate Muslim would say about the law of stoning? He would deny
that this is an Islamic law and he would challenge you to find such a
thing
Post by A***@somewhere.com
in the Quran. He is right! Stoning does not exist in the Quran. But it
exists in the Sunnah and the Sunnah (Muhammad's own examples) is the major
source of the Sharia law.
In Islam if there is no specific reference to a law, the Judaic law should
apply. Stoning the adulterers is a law prescribed in Deuteronomy 22:23,
and
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the prophet practiced stoning of adulterers as per various hadiths. (1,
2,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
3)
As the Imam of IslamOnline.net rightly states, Islam is not a religion at
all. Islam is politics. Islam's only objective is to reclaim the Earth for
Allah and establish the rule of Sharia. You take away that objective and
Islam as a whole becomes meaningless. It simply loses its raison d'être.
While Christ wanted to conquer the hearts of the people, Muhammad could
care
Post by A***@somewhere.com
less about people's hearts. He was interested in conquering cities and
establishing the dominion of Islam in the name of God.
The very word Islam means submission. The first duty of a Muslim is to
strive (make Jihad) and render the world submissive to Allah and his
messenger.
Ironically, the word peace in Islam, also derive from the same root SLM,
does not mean mutual and harmonious coexistence of two equal and sovereign
people. It means suppressing the non-Muslims and making them submissive to
the rule and dominance of Islam. Islam does not recognize the legitimacy
of
Post by A***@somewhere.com
any non-Islamic government especially over the Muslims.
"Yea, to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth; 24.42
and,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah),
never
Post by A***@somewhere.com
will it be accepted of him" 3:85. Muslims are pressed to "fight them [the
infidels] on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there
prevail
Post by A***@somewhere.com
justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere" 8:39,.
It must be noted that tumult and oppression means resisting the advance of
Islam. Justice and peace can only prevail when Islam becomes dominant and
other religions are subdued and their followers are reduced to tributaries
to the coffers of the Islamic state. They must "pay the Jizya with
willing
Post by A***@somewhere.com
submission, and feel themselves subdued".9:29.
I strongly disagree with those who compare Islam of today with the
Christianity of the Middle Ages and claim that since Christianity
eventually
Post by A***@somewhere.com
was reformed, Islam can also reform.
The proponents of reform have a very weak position to defend. Daniel Pipes
is one such scholar who believes, at least ostensibly, that Islam can be
reformed. The weakness of his position is picked up by his opponents who
rightly say, "Dr. Pipes seems to contradict himself. First he says that
there is nothing in Islam that contradicts democracy and then insists that
Sharia is antidemocratic."
Muslims are supposed to give their highest allegiance to Islam, not to
their
Post by A***@somewhere.com
country and not even to their family. The scope is not as much to convert
the world into Islam but to dominate the world and to establish the law of
Sharia.
As a matter of fact when a Muslim army invaded a country, they did not
accept the conversion of the conquered right away. This would have
deprived
Post by A***@somewhere.com
them of the booty and to excise the Jizyah tax, which was the main
incentive
Post by A***@somewhere.com
of the Muslims to attack in the first place. The conquered people were
left
Post by A***@somewhere.com
to practice their religion for centuries providing the wealth for the
Islamic empire and finance the Islamic army to continue with their
conquests. As the following hadith shows the Muslims would provide
"protection" for the people of other religions, i.e. would not kill them,
under the condition that they pay the jizyah which as Umar said was
fixed
Post by Torpedo
by
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Allah as stipends for Muslims.
"According to the saying of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him): Allah has
placed truth upon Umar's tongue and heart. He fixed stipends for Muslims,
and provided protection for the people of other religions by levying
jizyah
Post by A***@somewhere.com
(poll-tax) on them, deducting no fifth from it, nor taking it as booty.
Therefore when Muslims say that Islam is a tolerant religion, which allows
the non-Muslims to keep their faith and practice their religion, in a
sense
Post by A***@somewhere.com
they are telling the truth. However, that freedom has a catch and that
is
Post by Torpedo
to
Post by A***@somewhere.com
accept the status of dhimitude, become subservient to Muslims and "pay the
Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"
According to Muslim scholars, the verse 9:23 of the Quran that instructs
the
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Muslims not to take the infidels as their awlia (protectors, custodians,
rulers) implies that Muslims should not accept the rule and the governance
of non-Muslims. Hence they are required to overthrow the non-Islamic
governments, whenever they are able to and wherever they reside to
establish
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Islamic governments. Until then that country is considered to be Dar al
Harb
Post by A***@somewhere.com
(House of war). When the governance of the country is turned over to the
Muslims, that country becomes Dar al Islam (House of Islam) and Sharia
becomes the law of the land. This does not mean that everyone will be
forced
Post by A***@somewhere.com
to convert to Islam. It means that everyone becomes subject to Sharia and
those who are not believers will be classified as dhimmis, will have to
pay
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Jizyah and support the Ummah financially.
--
JimB
http://www.geocities.com/UAM01
Union Against Multi-Culty
Bullock
2004-01-08 21:40:23 UTC
Permalink
No.
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Can Islam be reformed?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina31119.htm
By: Ali Sina
When the US Secretary of State Colin Powel said Islam is not incompatible
with democracy, the spokesman of the Islamic Republic of Iran Hamid Reza
Asefi mocked him and said "US officials' comments on Islam clearly prove
they do know nothing about Islam and Muslims.
If Asefi has said only one word of truth in his entire life, this is it.
Today the question that everyone asks is whether Islam can be reformed and
whether it can accommodate the democracy.
A friend of mine wrote: "Pentateuch is very similar to the Quran: same
intolerance, same draconian laws, etc. yet the great part of the Jews
finally rejected the literal interpretation of their holy scriptures and
proved they could evolve."
Also Christianity has allowed for change, The Church of the 16th century was
as repressive as the Talibans and the Wahhabis. Yet Reformation took place,
nonetheless. And even the Catholic Church is finally opening up.
Can't then we extrapolate that the same could happen to Islam?
The idea that since Christianity and Judaism reformed then Islam can also be
reformed is untenable. Islam is not comparable to Christianity, Judaism or
any other religion.
Christianity is essentially a religion of the heart. It were statements such
as "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" and "My kingdom is not of this
world" that allowed the Christians to keep their faith while permitting
secular governments to evolve independent of the Church. A Christian does
not feel any contradiction or dichotomy by living with secular laws and
practicing his religious beliefs. One can be a Christian in his heart and
secular in politics. Therefore reform in Christianity did not mean
renouncing faith.
There are very few Jews who believe that the Pentateuch is actually the word
of God. In all the five books attributed to Moses, he is referred to in
third person. Then the Deuteronomy ends by giving an obituary about Moses
and how his tomb has been lost. This allows the Jews to be open about the
interpretation of the Bible as it is clear, at least to the thinking
majority of them, that the Bible is not the textual word of God but written
by humans, who were allegedly inspired, yet fallible nonetheless.
Also living in Diaspora for 2000 years with no temporal authority has forced
the Jews to learn how to adapt their Jewish laws (Halakhah) to the
exigencies of the non-Jewish world, which allows them now to create a
secular state in a country built through religious imperatives.
However, reforming Islam is not something that a Muslim would consider.
Those who ask such question are always the non-Muslims. For a Muslim this
question is pointless. The thought of reform would not even pass the mind of
a Muslim. He would tell you that the problem with Islamic world is in the
inadequate interpretation of the Sharia and not in the Sharia itself.
Quran is considered to be the verbatim words of God. The verse "This day I
have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you, and have
chosen for you Islam as your religion" 5:3 reverberates in the ears of every
Muslim. It leaves no room for interpretations and reformations. How can
anyone improve or change something that is perfect?
History shows that all attempts to reform Islam have failed. The Sufis tried
to interpret the Quran esoterically and mystically. The Mu'tazelis went as
far as to suggest that if there is a contradiction between the revelation
and reason the latter should prevail. Some modern day Islamists such as Ali
Shariati and Sorush have tried to use Islam as a political tool to bring
Islamic world out of the dark ages and into the modern world. However all
these attempts have failed and Islam is now in it darkest phase of its
existence. As a matter of fact every time Islam is taken into equation, even
nominally, for a social change the result is catastrophic because the
gravitational pull of the Quran towards fundamentalism quashes every other
consideration. Quran cannot be interpreted and reformed. The will of God
cannot be surpassed by the will of people because of convenience and
expediency. Any minor deviation from the Quran is considered to be a direct
challenge to its authority and it invalidates the entire faith.
Islam is considered to be a "complete way of life"
This concept is eloquently explained in the Islamic site Islamonline.net
"Islam is not a religion in the common, distorted meaning of the word,
confining its scope only to the private life of man. By saying that it is a
complete way of life, we mean that it caters for all the fields of human
existence. In fact, Islam provides guidance for all walks of life -
individual and social, material and moral, economic and political, legal and
cultural, national and international.
The Qur'an enjoins Man to enter the fold of Islam without any reservation
and to follow God's guidance in all fields of life."
In Islam politics and faith are intertwined. The separation of the two would
mean the end of faith. In criticism of Christianity the above site
continues: .
"Religion asks us to separate things of God from those of Caesar. Such a
judicial separation between the two means the degrading of both the secular
and the sacred. That religion is worth little, if the conscience of its
followers is not disturbed when war clouds are hanging over us all and
industrial conflicts are threatening social peace. Religion has weakened Man
's social conscience and moral sensitivity, by separating the things of God
from those of Caesar."
As for Islam, it totally denounces this concept of religion and clearly
states that its objectives are purification of the soul and the reform and
reconstruction of the society. "
We verily sent Our messengers with clear proofs and revealed with them the
scripture and the balance [i.e. the authority to establish justice], that
mankind may observe justice and the right measure.
The command is for none but Allah; He has commanded that you obey none but
Him; that is the right path.
[Muslims are] those who if We give them power in the land, establish [the
system of] salat (prayers and worship) and zakat (poor due) and enjoin
virtue and forbid vice and evil."
"Thus, even a cursory study of the teachings of Islam shows that it is an
all-embracing way of life and does not leave out any field of human
existence to become a playground for satanic forces."
That is true. A Muslim is supposed to get religious instructions about
everything. Even with which foot he ought to enter the toilet, which
direction to face, which foot to put his weight on during defecation and how
many rocks to use for cleaning purposes are topics that the foqaha, "the
doctors of the law" study for years to master and then guide the ummah who
in turn would not lift a finger without consulting such doctors.
Addressing the problem of Sharia for a Muslim is considered heresy. The
so-called moderate Muslims do not propose to scrap or change the Sharia. So,
what a moderate Muslim would say about the law of stoning? He would deny
that this is an Islamic law and he would challenge you to find such a thing
in the Quran. He is right! Stoning does not exist in the Quran. But it
exists in the Sunnah and the Sunnah (Muhammad's own examples) is the major
source of the Sharia law.
In Islam if there is no specific reference to a law, the Judaic law should
apply. Stoning the adulterers is a law prescribed in Deuteronomy 22:23, and
the prophet practiced stoning of adulterers as per various hadiths. (1,
2,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
3)
As the Imam of IslamOnline.net rightly states, Islam is not a religion at
all. Islam is politics. Islam's only objective is to reclaim the Earth for
Allah and establish the rule of Sharia. You take away that objective and
Islam as a whole becomes meaningless. It simply loses its raison d'être.
While Christ wanted to conquer the hearts of the people, Muhammad could care
less about people's hearts. He was interested in conquering cities and
establishing the dominion of Islam in the name of God.
The very word Islam means submission. The first duty of a Muslim is to
strive (make Jihad) and render the world submissive to Allah and his
messenger.
Ironically, the word peace in Islam, also derive from the same root SLM,
does not mean mutual and harmonious coexistence of two equal and sovereign
people. It means suppressing the non-Muslims and making them submissive to
the rule and dominance of Islam. Islam does not recognize the legitimacy of
any non-Islamic government especially over the Muslims.
"Yea, to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth; 24.42 and,
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never
will it be accepted of him" 3:85. Muslims are pressed to "fight them [the
infidels] on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail
justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere" 8:39,.
It must be noted that tumult and oppression means resisting the advance of
Islam. Justice and peace can only prevail when Islam becomes dominant and
other religions are subdued and their followers are reduced to tributaries
to the coffers of the Islamic state. They must "pay the Jizya with willing
submission, and feel themselves subdued".9:29.
I strongly disagree with those who compare Islam of today with the
Christianity of the Middle Ages and claim that since Christianity eventually
was reformed, Islam can also reform.
The proponents of reform have a very weak position to defend. Daniel Pipes
is one such scholar who believes, at least ostensibly, that Islam can be
reformed. The weakness of his position is picked up by his opponents who
rightly say, "Dr. Pipes seems to contradict himself. First he says that
there is nothing in Islam that contradicts democracy and then insists that
Sharia is antidemocratic."
Muslims are supposed to give their highest allegiance to Islam, not to their
country and not even to their family. The scope is not as much to convert
the world into Islam but to dominate the world and to establish the law of
Sharia.
As a matter of fact when a Muslim army invaded a country, they did not
accept the conversion of the conquered right away. This would have deprived
them of the booty and to excise the Jizyah tax, which was the main incentive
of the Muslims to attack in the first place. The conquered people were left
to practice their religion for centuries providing the wealth for the
Islamic empire and finance the Islamic army to continue with their
conquests. As the following hadith shows the Muslims would provide
"protection" for the people of other religions, i.e. would not kill them,
under the condition that they pay the jizyah which as Umar said was fixed by
Allah as stipends for Muslims.
"According to the saying of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him): Allah has
placed truth upon Umar's tongue and heart. He fixed stipends for Muslims,
and provided protection for the people of other religions by levying jizyah
(poll-tax) on them, deducting no fifth from it, nor taking it as booty.
Therefore when Muslims say that Islam is a tolerant religion, which allows
the non-Muslims to keep their faith and practice their religion, in a sense
they are telling the truth. However, that freedom has a catch and that is to
accept the status of dhimitude, become subservient to Muslims and "pay the
Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"
According to Muslim scholars, the verse 9:23 of the Quran that instructs the
Muslims not to take the infidels as their awlia (protectors, custodians,
rulers) implies that Muslims should not accept the rule and the governance
of non-Muslims. Hence they are required to overthrow the non-Islamic
governments, whenever they are able to and wherever they reside to establish
Islamic governments. Until then that country is considered to be Dar al Harb
(House of war). When the governance of the country is turned over to the
Muslims, that country becomes Dar al Islam (House of Islam) and Sharia
becomes the law of the land. This does not mean that everyone will be forced
to convert to Islam. It means that everyone becomes subject to Sharia and
those who are not believers will be classified as dhimmis, will have to pay
Jizyah and support the Ummah financially.
--
JimB
http://www.geocities.com/UAM01
Union Against Multi-Culty
danny
2004-01-08 22:57:37 UTC
Permalink
Mustafa Ataturk attempted to secularize Islam.
The result is modern Turkey which has succeeded
in maintaining a secular state only at the expense
of the constant threat of military overthrow of the
government.

danny
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Can Islam be reformed?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina31119.htm
By: Ali Sina
When the US Secretary of State Colin Powel said Islam is not incompatible
with democracy, the spokesman of the Islamic Republic of Iran Hamid Reza
Asefi mocked him and said "US officials' comments on Islam clearly prove
they do know nothing about Islam and Muslims.
If Asefi has said only one word of truth in his entire life, this is it.
Today the question that everyone asks is whether Islam can be reformed and
whether it can accommodate the democracy.
A friend of mine wrote: "Pentateuch is very similar to the Quran: same
intolerance, same draconian laws, etc. yet the great part of the Jews
finally rejected the literal interpretation of their holy scriptures and
proved they could evolve."
Also Christianity has allowed for change, The Church of the 16th century was
as repressive as the Talibans and the Wahhabis. Yet Reformation took place,
nonetheless. And even the Catholic Church is finally opening up.
Can't then we extrapolate that the same could happen to Islam?
The idea that since Christianity and Judaism reformed then Islam can also be
reformed is untenable. Islam is not comparable to Christianity, Judaism or
any other religion.
Christianity is essentially a religion of the heart. It were statements such
as "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" and "My kingdom is not of this
world" that allowed the Christians to keep their faith while permitting
secular governments to evolve independent of the Church. A Christian does
not feel any contradiction or dichotomy by living with secular laws and
practicing his religious beliefs. One can be a Christian in his heart and
secular in politics. Therefore reform in Christianity did not mean
renouncing faith.
There are very few Jews who believe that the Pentateuch is actually the word
of God. In all the five books attributed to Moses, he is referred to in
third person. Then the Deuteronomy ends by giving an obituary about Moses
and how his tomb has been lost. This allows the Jews to be open about the
interpretation of the Bible as it is clear, at least to the thinking
majority of them, that the Bible is not the textual word of God but written
by humans, who were allegedly inspired, yet fallible nonetheless.
Also living in Diaspora for 2000 years with no temporal authority has forced
the Jews to learn how to adapt their Jewish laws (Halakhah) to the
exigencies of the non-Jewish world, which allows them now to create a
secular state in a country built through religious imperatives.
However, reforming Islam is not something that a Muslim would consider.
Those who ask such question are always the non-Muslims. For a Muslim this
question is pointless. The thought of reform would not even pass the mind of
a Muslim. He would tell you that the problem with Islamic world is in the
inadequate interpretation of the Sharia and not in the Sharia itself.
Quran is considered to be the verbatim words of God. The verse "This day I
have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you, and have
chosen for you Islam as your religion" 5:3 reverberates in the ears of every
Muslim. It leaves no room for interpretations and reformations. How can
anyone improve or change something that is perfect?
History shows that all attempts to reform Islam have failed. The Sufis tried
to interpret the Quran esoterically and mystically. The Mu'tazelis went as
far as to suggest that if there is a contradiction between the revelation
and reason the latter should prevail. Some modern day Islamists such as Ali
Shariati and Sorush have tried to use Islam as a political tool to bring
Islamic world out of the dark ages and into the modern world. However all
these attempts have failed and Islam is now in it darkest phase of its
existence. As a matter of fact every time Islam is taken into equation, even
nominally, for a social change the result is catastrophic because the
gravitational pull of the Quran towards fundamentalism quashes every other
consideration. Quran cannot be interpreted and reformed. The will of God
cannot be surpassed by the will of people because of convenience and
expediency. Any minor deviation from the Quran is considered to be a direct
challenge to its authority and it invalidates the entire faith.
Islam is considered to be a "complete way of life"
This concept is eloquently explained in the Islamic site Islamonline.net
"Islam is not a religion in the common, distorted meaning of the word,
confining its scope only to the private life of man. By saying that it is a
complete way of life, we mean that it caters for all the fields of human
existence. In fact, Islam provides guidance for all walks of life -
individual and social, material and moral, economic and political, legal and
cultural, national and international.
The Qur'an enjoins Man to enter the fold of Islam without any reservation
and to follow God's guidance in all fields of life."
In Islam politics and faith are intertwined. The separation of the two would
mean the end of faith. In criticism of Christianity the above site
continues: .
"Religion asks us to separate things of God from those of Caesar. Such a
judicial separation between the two means the degrading of both the secular
and the sacred. That religion is worth little, if the conscience of its
followers is not disturbed when war clouds are hanging over us all and
industrial conflicts are threatening social peace. Religion has weakened Man
's social conscience and moral sensitivity, by separating the things of God
from those of Caesar."
As for Islam, it totally denounces this concept of religion and clearly
states that its objectives are purification of the soul and the reform and
reconstruction of the society. "
We verily sent Our messengers with clear proofs and revealed with them the
scripture and the balance [i.e. the authority to establish justice], that
mankind may observe justice and the right measure.
The command is for none but Allah; He has commanded that you obey none but
Him; that is the right path.
[Muslims are] those who if We give them power in the land, establish [the
system of] salat (prayers and worship) and zakat (poor due) and enjoin
virtue and forbid vice and evil."
"Thus, even a cursory study of the teachings of Islam shows that it is an
all-embracing way of life and does not leave out any field of human
existence to become a playground for satanic forces."
That is true. A Muslim is supposed to get religious instructions about
everything. Even with which foot he ought to enter the toilet, which
direction to face, which foot to put his weight on during defecation and how
many rocks to use for cleaning purposes are topics that the foqaha, "the
doctors of the law" study for years to master and then guide the ummah who
in turn would not lift a finger without consulting such doctors.
Addressing the problem of Sharia for a Muslim is considered heresy. The
so-called moderate Muslims do not propose to scrap or change the Sharia. So,
what a moderate Muslim would say about the law of stoning? He would deny
that this is an Islamic law and he would challenge you to find such a thing
in the Quran. He is right! Stoning does not exist in the Quran. But it
exists in the Sunnah and the Sunnah (Muhammad's own examples) is the major
source of the Sharia law.
In Islam if there is no specific reference to a law, the Judaic law should
apply. Stoning the adulterers is a law prescribed in Deuteronomy 22:23, and
the prophet practiced stoning of adulterers as per various hadiths. (1, 2,
3)
As the Imam of IslamOnline.net rightly states, Islam is not a religion at
all. Islam is politics. Islam's only objective is to reclaim the Earth for
Allah and establish the rule of Sharia. You take away that objective and
Islam as a whole becomes meaningless. It simply loses its raison d'être.
While Christ wanted to conquer the hearts of the people, Muhammad could care
less about people's hearts. He was interested in conquering cities and
establishing the dominion of Islam in the name of God.
The very word Islam means submission. The first duty of a Muslim is to
strive (make Jihad) and render the world submissive to Allah and his
messenger.
Ironically, the word peace in Islam, also derive from the same root SLM,
does not mean mutual and harmonious coexistence of two equal and sovereign
people. It means suppressing the non-Muslims and making them submissive to
the rule and dominance of Islam. Islam does not recognize the legitimacy of
any non-Islamic government especially over the Muslims.
"Yea, to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth; 24.42 and,
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never
will it be accepted of him" 3:85. Muslims are pressed to "fight them [the
infidels] on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail
justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere" 8:39,.
It must be noted that tumult and oppression means resisting the advance of
Islam. Justice and peace can only prevail when Islam becomes dominant and
other religions are subdued and their followers are reduced to tributaries
to the coffers of the Islamic state. They must "pay the Jizya with willing
submission, and feel themselves subdued".9:29.
I strongly disagree with those who compare Islam of today with the
Christianity of the Middle Ages and claim that since Christianity eventually
was reformed, Islam can also reform.
The proponents of reform have a very weak position to defend. Daniel Pipes
is one such scholar who believes, at least ostensibly, that Islam can be
reformed. The weakness of his position is picked up by his opponents who
rightly say, "Dr. Pipes seems to contradict himself. First he says that
there is nothing in Islam that contradicts democracy and then insists that
Sharia is antidemocratic."
Muslims are supposed to give their highest allegiance to Islam, not to their
country and not even to their family. The scope is not as much to convert
the world into Islam but to dominate the world and to establish the law of
Sharia.
As a matter of fact when a Muslim army invaded a country, they did not
accept the conversion of the conquered right away. This would have deprived
them of the booty and to excise the Jizyah tax, which was the main incentive
of the Muslims to attack in the first place. The conquered people were left
to practice their religion for centuries providing the wealth for the
Islamic empire and finance the Islamic army to continue with their
conquests. As the following hadith shows the Muslims would provide
"protection" for the people of other religions, i.e. would not kill them,
under the condition that they pay the jizyah which as Umar said was fixed by
Allah as stipends for Muslims.
"According to the saying of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him): Allah has
placed truth upon Umar's tongue and heart. He fixed stipends for Muslims,
and provided protection for the people of other religions by levying jizyah
(poll-tax) on them, deducting no fifth from it, nor taking it as booty.
Therefore when Muslims say that Islam is a tolerant religion, which allows
the non-Muslims to keep their faith and practice their religion, in a sense
they are telling the truth. However, that freedom has a catch and that is to
accept the status of dhimitude, become subservient to Muslims and "pay the
Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"
According to Muslim scholars, the verse 9:23 of the Quran that instructs the
Muslims not to take the infidels as their awlia (protectors, custodians,
rulers) implies that Muslims should not accept the rule and the governance
of non-Muslims. Hence they are required to overthrow the non-Islamic
governments, whenever they are able to and wherever they reside to establish
Islamic governments. Until then that country is considered to be Dar al Harb
(House of war). When the governance of the country is turned over to the
Muslims, that country becomes Dar al Islam (House of Islam) and Sharia
becomes the law of the land. This does not mean that everyone will be forced
to convert to Islam. It means that everyone becomes subject to Sharia and
those who are not believers will be classified as dhimmis, will have to pay
Jizyah and support the Ummah financially.
--
JimB
http://www.geocities.com/UAM01
Union Against Multi-Culty
Ralph Kunkle
2004-01-09 02:41:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by danny
Mustafa Ataturk attempted to secularize Islam.
The result is modern Turkey which has succeeded
in maintaining a secular state only at the expense
of the constant threat of military overthrow of the
government.
As opposed to those stable, enlightened governments ni the rest
of the Islamic world?
danny
2004-01-09 03:04:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph Kunkle
Post by danny
Mustafa Ataturk attempted to secularize Islam.
The result is modern Turkey which has succeeded
in maintaining a secular state only at the expense
of the constant threat of military overthrow of the
government.
As opposed to those stable, enlightened governments ni the rest
of the Islamic world?
Exactly.

danny
Roger
2004-01-09 04:54:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph Kunkle
Post by danny
Mustafa Ataturk attempted to secularize Islam.
The result is modern Turkey which has succeeded
in maintaining a secular state only at the expense
of the constant threat of military overthrow of the
government.
As opposed to those stable, enlightened governments ni the rest
of the Islamic world?
Not like those enlightened western countries that invade other countries
for, oops!, no good reason.
danny
2004-01-10 03:01:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Ralph Kunkle
Post by danny
Mustafa Ataturk attempted to secularize Islam.
The result is modern Turkey which has succeeded
in maintaining a secular state only at the expense
of the constant threat of military overthrow of the
government.
As opposed to those stable, enlightened governments ni the rest
of the Islamic world?
Not like those enlightened western countries that invade other countries
for, oops!, no good reason.
But could you call this flaw
a property of being a western
country? Perhaps it's instead, a
behavior common to great powers.

danny
Roger
2004-01-10 07:43:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by danny
Post by Roger
Post by Ralph Kunkle
Post by danny
Mustafa Ataturk attempted to secularize Islam.
The result is modern Turkey which has succeeded
in maintaining a secular state only at the expense
of the constant threat of military overthrow of the
government.
As opposed to those stable, enlightened governments ni the rest
of the Islamic world?
Not like those enlightened western countries that invade other countries
for, oops!, no good reason.
But could you call this flaw
a property of being a western
country? Perhaps it's instead, a
behavior common to great powers.
True.
Post by danny
danny
DemSoc
2004-05-03 15:08:17 UTC
Permalink
No truth all. Powel knows more than you do obviously.

Islam is imperialism, but many religions went through it.

Just that the west had the reformation.
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Can Islam be reformed?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina31119.htm
By: Ali Sina
When the US Secretary of State Colin Powel said Islam is not incompatible
with democracy, the spokesman of the Islamic Republic of Iran Hamid Reza
Asefi mocked him and said "US officials' comments on Islam clearly prove
they do know nothing about Islam and Muslims.
If Asefi has said only one word of truth in his entire life, this is it.
Today the question that everyone asks is whether Islam can be reformed and
whether it can accommodate the democracy.
A friend of mine wrote: "Pentateuch is very similar to the Quran: same
intolerance, same draconian laws, etc. yet the great part of the Jews
finally rejected the literal interpretation of their holy scriptures and
proved they could evolve."
Also Christianity has allowed for change, The Church of the 16th century was
as repressive as the Talibans and the Wahhabis. Yet Reformation took place,
nonetheless. And even the Catholic Church is finally opening up.
Can't then we extrapolate that the same could happen to Islam?
The idea that since Christianity and Judaism reformed then Islam can also be
reformed is untenable. Islam is not comparable to Christianity, Judaism or
any other religion.
Christianity is essentially a religion of the heart. It were statements such
as "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" and "My kingdom is not of this
world" that allowed the Christians to keep their faith while permitting
secular governments to evolve independent of the Church. A Christian does
not feel any contradiction or dichotomy by living with secular laws and
practicing his religious beliefs. One can be a Christian in his heart and
secular in politics. Therefore reform in Christianity did not mean
renouncing faith.
There are very few Jews who believe that the Pentateuch is actually the word
of God. In all the five books attributed to Moses, he is referred to in
third person. Then the Deuteronomy ends by giving an obituary about Moses
and how his tomb has been lost. This allows the Jews to be open about the
interpretation of the Bible as it is clear, at least to the thinking
majority of them, that the Bible is not the textual word of God but written
by humans, who were allegedly inspired, yet fallible nonetheless.
Also living in Diaspora for 2000 years with no temporal authority has forced
the Jews to learn how to adapt their Jewish laws (Halakhah) to the
exigencies of the non-Jewish world, which allows them now to create a
secular state in a country built through religious imperatives.
However, reforming Islam is not something that a Muslim would consider.
Those who ask such question are always the non-Muslims. For a Muslim this
question is pointless. The thought of reform would not even pass the mind of
a Muslim. He would tell you that the problem with Islamic world is in the
inadequate interpretation of the Sharia and not in the Sharia itself.
Quran is considered to be the verbatim words of God. The verse "This day I
have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you, and have
chosen for you Islam as your religion" 5:3 reverberates in the ears of every
Muslim. It leaves no room for interpretations and reformations. How can
anyone improve or change something that is perfect?
History shows that all attempts to reform Islam have failed. The Sufis tried
to interpret the Quran esoterically and mystically. The Mu'tazelis went as
far as to suggest that if there is a contradiction between the revelation
and reason the latter should prevail. Some modern day Islamists such as Ali
Shariati and Sorush have tried to use Islam as a political tool to bring
Islamic world out of the dark ages and into the modern world. However all
these attempts have failed and Islam is now in it darkest phase of its
existence. As a matter of fact every time Islam is taken into equation, even
nominally, for a social change the result is catastrophic because the
gravitational pull of the Quran towards fundamentalism quashes every other
consideration. Quran cannot be interpreted and reformed. The will of God
cannot be surpassed by the will of people because of convenience and
expediency. Any minor deviation from the Quran is considered to be a direct
challenge to its authority and it invalidates the entire faith.
Islam is considered to be a "complete way of life"
This concept is eloquently explained in the Islamic site Islamonline.net
"Islam is not a religion in the common, distorted meaning of the word,
confining its scope only to the private life of man. By saying that it is a
complete way of life, we mean that it caters for all the fields of human
existence. In fact, Islam provides guidance for all walks of life -
individual and social, material and moral, economic and political, legal and
cultural, national and international.
The Qur'an enjoins Man to enter the fold of Islam without any reservation
and to follow God's guidance in all fields of life."
In Islam politics and faith are intertwined. The separation of the two would
mean the end of faith. In criticism of Christianity the above site
continues: .
"Religion asks us to separate things of God from those of Caesar. Such a
judicial separation between the two means the degrading of both the secular
and the sacred. That religion is worth little, if the conscience of its
followers is not disturbed when war clouds are hanging over us all and
industrial conflicts are threatening social peace. Religion has weakened Man
's social conscience and moral sensitivity, by separating the things of God
from those of Caesar."
As for Islam, it totally denounces this concept of religion and clearly
states that its objectives are purification of the soul and the reform and
reconstruction of the society. "
We verily sent Our messengers with clear proofs and revealed with them the
scripture and the balance [i.e. the authority to establish justice], that
mankind may observe justice and the right measure.
The command is for none but Allah; He has commanded that you obey none but
Him; that is the right path.
[Muslims are] those who if We give them power in the land, establish [the
system of] salat (prayers and worship) and zakat (poor due) and enjoin
virtue and forbid vice and evil."
"Thus, even a cursory study of the teachings of Islam shows that it is an
all-embracing way of life and does not leave out any field of human
existence to become a playground for satanic forces."
That is true. A Muslim is supposed to get religious instructions about
everything. Even with which foot he ought to enter the toilet, which
direction to face, which foot to put his weight on during defecation and how
many rocks to use for cleaning purposes are topics that the foqaha, "the
doctors of the law" study for years to master and then guide the ummah who
in turn would not lift a finger without consulting such doctors.
Addressing the problem of Sharia for a Muslim is considered heresy. The
so-called moderate Muslims do not propose to scrap or change the Sharia. So,
what a moderate Muslim would say about the law of stoning? He would deny
that this is an Islamic law and he would challenge you to find such a thing
in the Quran. He is right! Stoning does not exist in the Quran. But it
exists in the Sunnah and the Sunnah (Muhammad's own examples) is the major
source of the Sharia law.
In Islam if there is no specific reference to a law, the Judaic law should
apply. Stoning the adulterers is a law prescribed in Deuteronomy 22:23, and
the prophet practiced stoning of adulterers as per various hadiths. (1,
2,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
3)
As the Imam of IslamOnline.net rightly states, Islam is not a religion at
all. Islam is politics. Islam's only objective is to reclaim the Earth for
Allah and establish the rule of Sharia. You take away that objective and
Islam as a whole becomes meaningless. It simply loses its raison d'être.
While Christ wanted to conquer the hearts of the people, Muhammad could care
less about people's hearts. He was interested in conquering cities and
establishing the dominion of Islam in the name of God.
The very word Islam means submission. The first duty of a Muslim is to
strive (make Jihad) and render the world submissive to Allah and his
messenger.
Ironically, the word peace in Islam, also derive from the same root SLM,
does not mean mutual and harmonious coexistence of two equal and sovereign
people. It means suppressing the non-Muslims and making them submissive to
the rule and dominance of Islam. Islam does not recognize the legitimacy of
any non-Islamic government especially over the Muslims.
"Yea, to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth; 24.42 and,
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never
will it be accepted of him" 3:85. Muslims are pressed to "fight them [the
infidels] on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail
justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere" 8:39,.
It must be noted that tumult and oppression means resisting the advance of
Islam. Justice and peace can only prevail when Islam becomes dominant and
other religions are subdued and their followers are reduced to tributaries
to the coffers of the Islamic state. They must "pay the Jizya with willing
submission, and feel themselves subdued".9:29.
I strongly disagree with those who compare Islam of today with the
Christianity of the Middle Ages and claim that since Christianity eventually
was reformed, Islam can also reform.
The proponents of reform have a very weak position to defend. Daniel Pipes
is one such scholar who believes, at least ostensibly, that Islam can be
reformed. The weakness of his position is picked up by his opponents who
rightly say, "Dr. Pipes seems to contradict himself. First he says that
there is nothing in Islam that contradicts democracy and then insists that
Sharia is antidemocratic."
Muslims are supposed to give their highest allegiance to Islam, not to their
country and not even to their family. The scope is not as much to convert
the world into Islam but to dominate the world and to establish the law of
Sharia.
As a matter of fact when a Muslim army invaded a country, they did not
accept the conversion of the conquered right away. This would have deprived
them of the booty and to excise the Jizyah tax, which was the main incentive
of the Muslims to attack in the first place. The conquered people were left
to practice their religion for centuries providing the wealth for the
Islamic empire and finance the Islamic army to continue with their
conquests. As the following hadith shows the Muslims would provide
"protection" for the people of other religions, i.e. would not kill them,
under the condition that they pay the jizyah which as Umar said was fixed by
Allah as stipends for Muslims.
"According to the saying of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him): Allah has
placed truth upon Umar's tongue and heart. He fixed stipends for Muslims,
and provided protection for the people of other religions by levying jizyah
(poll-tax) on them, deducting no fifth from it, nor taking it as booty.
Therefore when Muslims say that Islam is a tolerant religion, which allows
the non-Muslims to keep their faith and practice their religion, in a sens
e
Post by A***@somewhere.com
they are telling the truth. However, that freedom has a catch and that is to
accept the status of dhimitude, become subservient to Muslims and "pay the
Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"
According to Muslim scholars, the verse 9:23 of the Quran that instructs the
Muslims not to take the infidels as their awlia (protectors, custodians,
rulers) implies that Muslims should not accept the rule and the governance
of non-Muslims. Hence they are required to overthrow the non-Islamic
governments, whenever they are able to and wherever they reside to establish
Islamic governments. Until then that country is considered to be Dar al Harb
(House of war). When the governance of the country is turned over to the
Muslims, that country becomes Dar al Islam (House of Islam) and Sharia
becomes the law of the land. This does not mean that everyone will be forced
to convert to Islam. It means that everyone becomes subject to Sharia and
those who are not believers will be classified as dhimmis, will have to pay
Jizyah and support the Ummah financially.
--
JimB
http://www.geocities.com/UAM01
Union Against Multi-Culty
alias
2004-05-03 17:04:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by DemSoc
No truth all. Powel knows more than you do obviously.
Islam is imperialism, but many religions went through it.
Just that the west had the reformation.
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Can Islam be reformed?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina31119.htm
By: Ali Sina
When the US Secretary of State Colin Powel said Islam is not incompatible
with democracy, the spokesman of the Islamic Republic of Iran Hamid Reza
Asefi mocked him and said "US officials' comments on Islam clearly prove
they do know nothing about Islam and Muslims.
If Asefi has said only one word of truth in his entire life, this is it.
Today the question that everyone asks is whether Islam can be reformed and
whether it can accommodate the democracy.
A friend of mine wrote: "Pentateuch is very similar to the Quran: same
intolerance, same draconian laws, etc. yet the great part of the Jews
finally rejected the literal interpretation of their holy scriptures and
proved they could evolve."
Also Christianity has allowed for change, The Church of the 16th century
was
Post by A***@somewhere.com
as repressive as the Talibans and the Wahhabis. Yet Reformation took
place,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
nonetheless. And even the Catholic Church is finally opening up.
Can't then we extrapolate that the same could happen to Islam?
The idea that since Christianity and Judaism reformed then Islam can also
be
Post by A***@somewhere.com
reformed is untenable. Islam is not comparable to Christianity, Judaism or
any other religion.
Christianity is essentially a religion of the heart. It were statements
such
Post by A***@somewhere.com
as "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" and "My kingdom is not of this
world" that allowed the Christians to keep their faith while permitting
secular governments to evolve independent of the Church. A Christian does
not feel any contradiction or dichotomy by living with secular laws and
practicing his religious beliefs. One can be a Christian in his heart and
secular in politics. Therefore reform in Christianity did not mean
renouncing faith.
There are very few Jews who believe that the Pentateuch is actually the
word
Post by A***@somewhere.com
of God. In all the five books attributed to Moses, he is referred to in
third person. Then the Deuteronomy ends by giving an obituary about Moses
and how his tomb has been lost. This allows the Jews to be open about the
interpretation of the Bible as it is clear, at least to the thinking
majority of them, that the Bible is not the textual word of God but
written
Post by A***@somewhere.com
by humans, who were allegedly inspired, yet fallible nonetheless.
Also living in Diaspora for 2000 years with no temporal authority has
forced
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the Jews to learn how to adapt their Jewish laws (Halakhah) to the
exigencies of the non-Jewish world, which allows them now to create a
secular state in a country built through religious imperatives.
However, reforming Islam is not something that a Muslim would consider.
Those who ask such question are always the non-Muslims. For a Muslim this
question is pointless. The thought of reform would not even pass the mind
of
Post by A***@somewhere.com
a Muslim. He would tell you that the problem with Islamic world is in the
inadequate interpretation of the Sharia and not in the Sharia itself.
Quran is considered to be the verbatim words of God. The verse "This day I
have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you, and
have
Post by A***@somewhere.com
chosen for you Islam as your religion" 5:3 reverberates in the ears of
every
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Muslim. It leaves no room for interpretations and reformations. How can
anyone improve or change something that is perfect?
History shows that all attempts to reform Islam have failed. The Sufis
tried
Post by A***@somewhere.com
to interpret the Quran esoterically and mystically. The Mu'tazelis went as
far as to suggest that if there is a contradiction between the revelation
and reason the latter should prevail. Some modern day Islamists such as
Ali
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Shariati and Sorush have tried to use Islam as a political tool to bring
Islamic world out of the dark ages and into the modern world. However all
these attempts have failed and Islam is now in it darkest phase of its
existence. As a matter of fact every time Islam is taken into equation,
even
Post by A***@somewhere.com
nominally, for a social change the result is catastrophic because the
gravitational pull of the Quran towards fundamentalism quashes every other
consideration. Quran cannot be interpreted and reformed. The will of God
cannot be surpassed by the will of people because of convenience and
expediency. Any minor deviation from the Quran is considered to be a
direct
Post by A***@somewhere.com
challenge to its authority and it invalidates the entire faith.
Islam is considered to be a "complete way of life"
This concept is eloquently explained in the Islamic site Islamonline.net
"Islam is not a religion in the common, distorted meaning of the word,
confining its scope only to the private life of man. By saying that it is
a
Post by A***@somewhere.com
complete way of life, we mean that it caters for all the fields of human
existence. In fact, Islam provides guidance for all walks of life -
individual and social, material and moral, economic and political, legal
and
Post by A***@somewhere.com
cultural, national and international.
The Qur'an enjoins Man to enter the fold of Islam without any reservation
and to follow God's guidance in all fields of life."
In Islam politics and faith are intertwined. The separation of the two
would
Post by A***@somewhere.com
mean the end of faith. In criticism of Christianity the above site
continues: .
"Religion asks us to separate things of God from those of Caesar. Such a
judicial separation between the two means the degrading of both the
secular
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and the sacred. That religion is worth little, if the conscience of its
followers is not disturbed when war clouds are hanging over us all and
industrial conflicts are threatening social peace. Religion has weakened
Man
Post by A***@somewhere.com
's social conscience and moral sensitivity, by separating the things of
God
Post by A***@somewhere.com
from those of Caesar."
As for Islam, it totally denounces this concept of religion and clearly
states that its objectives are purification of the soul and the reform and
reconstruction of the society. "
We verily sent Our messengers with clear proofs and revealed with them the
scripture and the balance [i.e. the authority to establish justice], that
mankind may observe justice and the right measure.
The command is for none but Allah; He has commanded that you obey none but
Him; that is the right path.
[Muslims are] those who if We give them power in the land, establish [the
system of] salat (prayers and worship) and zakat (poor due) and enjoin
virtue and forbid vice and evil."
"Thus, even a cursory study of the teachings of Islam shows that it is an
all-embracing way of life and does not leave out any field of human
existence to become a playground for satanic forces."
That is true. A Muslim is supposed to get religious instructions about
everything. Even with which foot he ought to enter the toilet, which
direction to face, which foot to put his weight on during defecation and
how
Post by A***@somewhere.com
many rocks to use for cleaning purposes are topics that the foqaha, "the
doctors of the law" study for years to master and then guide the ummah who
in turn would not lift a finger without consulting such doctors.
Addressing the problem of Sharia for a Muslim is considered heresy. The
so-called moderate Muslims do not propose to scrap or change the Sharia.
So,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
what a moderate Muslim would say about the law of stoning? He would deny
that this is an Islamic law and he would challenge you to find such a
thing
Post by A***@somewhere.com
in the Quran. He is right! Stoning does not exist in the Quran. But it
exists in the Sunnah and the Sunnah (Muhammad's own examples) is the major
source of the Sharia law.
In Islam if there is no specific reference to a law, the Judaic law should
apply. Stoning the adulterers is a law prescribed in Deuteronomy 22:23,
and
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the prophet practiced stoning of adulterers as per various hadiths. (1,
2,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
3)
As the Imam of IslamOnline.net rightly states, Islam is not a religion at
all. Islam is politics. Islam's only objective is to reclaim the Earth for
Allah and establish the rule of Sharia. You take away that objective and
Islam as a whole becomes meaningless. It simply loses its raison d'être.
While Christ wanted to conquer the hearts of the people, Muhammad could
care
Post by A***@somewhere.com
less about people's hearts. He was interested in conquering cities and
establishing the dominion of Islam in the name of God.
The very word Islam means submission. The first duty of a Muslim is to
strive (make Jihad) and render the world submissive to Allah and his
messenger.
Ironically, the word peace in Islam, also derive from the same root SLM,
does not mean mutual and harmonious coexistence of two equal and sovereign
people. It means suppressing the non-Muslims and making them submissive to
the rule and dominance of Islam. Islam does not recognize the legitimacy
of
Post by A***@somewhere.com
any non-Islamic government especially over the Muslims.
"Yea, to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth; 24.42
and,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah),
never
Post by A***@somewhere.com
will it be accepted of him" 3:85. Muslims are pressed to "fight them [the
infidels] on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there
prevail
Post by A***@somewhere.com
justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere" 8:39,.
It must be noted that tumult and oppression means resisting the advance of
Islam. Justice and peace can only prevail when Islam becomes dominant and
other religions are subdued and their followers are reduced to tributaries
to the coffers of the Islamic state. They must "pay the Jizya with
willing
Post by A***@somewhere.com
submission, and feel themselves subdued".9:29.
I strongly disagree with those who compare Islam of today with the
Christianity of the Middle Ages and claim that since Christianity
eventually
Post by A***@somewhere.com
was reformed, Islam can also reform.
The proponents of reform have a very weak position to defend. Daniel Pipes
is one such scholar who believes, at least ostensibly, that Islam can be
reformed. The weakness of his position is picked up by his opponents who
rightly say, "Dr. Pipes seems to contradict himself. First he says that
there is nothing in Islam that contradicts democracy and then insists that
Sharia is antidemocratic."
Muslims are supposed to give their highest allegiance to Islam, not to
their
Post by A***@somewhere.com
country and not even to their family. The scope is not as much to convert
the world into Islam but to dominate the world and to establish the law of
Sharia.
As a matter of fact when a Muslim army invaded a country, they did not
accept the conversion of the conquered right away. This would have
deprived
Post by A***@somewhere.com
them of the booty and to excise the Jizyah tax, which was the main
incentive
Post by A***@somewhere.com
of the Muslims to attack in the first place. The conquered people were
left
Post by A***@somewhere.com
to practice their religion for centuries providing the wealth for the
Islamic empire and finance the Islamic army to continue with their
conquests. As the following hadith shows the Muslims would provide
"protection" for the people of other religions, i.e. would not kill them,
under the condition that they pay the jizyah which as Umar said was fixed
by
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Allah as stipends for Muslims.
"According to the saying of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him): Allah has
placed truth upon Umar's tongue and heart. He fixed stipends for Muslims,
and provided protection for the people of other religions by levying
jizyah
Post by A***@somewhere.com
(poll-tax) on them, deducting no fifth from it, nor taking it as booty.
Therefore when Muslims say that Islam is a tolerant religion, which allows
the non-Muslims to keep their faith and practice their religion, in a sens
e
Post by A***@somewhere.com
they are telling the truth. However, that freedom has a catch and that is
to
Post by A***@somewhere.com
accept the status of dhimitude, become subservient to Muslims and "pay the
Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"
According to Muslim scholars, the verse 9:23 of the Quran that instructs
the
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Muslims not to take the infidels as their awlia (protectors, custodians,
rulers) implies that Muslims should not accept the rule and the governance
of non-Muslims. Hence they are required to overthrow the non-Islamic
governments, whenever they are able to and wherever they reside to
establish
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Islamic governments. Until then that country is considered to be Dar al
Harb
Post by A***@somewhere.com
(House of war). When the governance of the country is turned over to the
Muslims, that country becomes Dar al Islam (House of Islam) and Sharia
becomes the law of the land. This does not mean that everyone will be
forced
Post by A***@somewhere.com
to convert to Islam. It means that everyone becomes subject to Sharia and
those who are not believers will be classified as dhimmis, will have to
pay
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Jizyah and support the Ummah financially.
Islam can be reformed only by outside military force and coercion. Not by persuasion, soft power
or attempting to win the minds and hearts of Muslims.
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
JimB
http://www.geocities.com/UAM01
Union Against Multi-Culty
DemSoc
2004-05-04 13:38:50 UTC
Permalink
Marxism is a dodo that give support to islam, as do fem-nazis like Greer.
Just like the dodo....
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
No truth all. Powel knows more than you do obviously.
Islam is imperialism, but many religions went through it.
Just that the west had the reformation.
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Can Islam be reformed?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina31119.htm
By: Ali Sina
When the US Secretary of State Colin Powel said Islam is not incompatible
with democracy, the spokesman of the Islamic Republic of Iran Hamid Reza
Asefi mocked him and said "US officials' comments on Islam clearly prove
they do know nothing about Islam and Muslims.
If Asefi has said only one word of truth in his entire life, this is it.
Today the question that everyone asks is whether Islam can be reformed and
whether it can accommodate the democracy.
A friend of mine wrote: "Pentateuch is very similar to the Quran: same
intolerance, same draconian laws, etc. yet the great part of the Jews
finally rejected the literal interpretation of their holy scriptures and
proved they could evolve."
Also Christianity has allowed for change, The Church of the 16th century
was
Post by A***@somewhere.com
as repressive as the Talibans and the Wahhabis. Yet Reformation took
place,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
nonetheless. And even the Catholic Church is finally opening up.
Can't then we extrapolate that the same could happen to Islam?
The idea that since Christianity and Judaism reformed then Islam can also
be
Post by A***@somewhere.com
reformed is untenable. Islam is not comparable to Christianity, Judaism or
any other religion.
Christianity is essentially a religion of the heart. It were statements
such
Post by A***@somewhere.com
as "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" and "My kingdom is not of this
world" that allowed the Christians to keep their faith while permitting
secular governments to evolve independent of the Church. A Christian does
not feel any contradiction or dichotomy by living with secular laws and
practicing his religious beliefs. One can be a Christian in his heart and
secular in politics. Therefore reform in Christianity did not mean
renouncing faith.
There are very few Jews who believe that the Pentateuch is actually the
word
Post by A***@somewhere.com
of God. In all the five books attributed to Moses, he is referred to in
third person. Then the Deuteronomy ends by giving an obituary about Moses
and how his tomb has been lost. This allows the Jews to be open about the
interpretation of the Bible as it is clear, at least to the thinking
majority of them, that the Bible is not the textual word of God but
written
Post by A***@somewhere.com
by humans, who were allegedly inspired, yet fallible nonetheless.
Also living in Diaspora for 2000 years with no temporal authority has
forced
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the Jews to learn how to adapt their Jewish laws (Halakhah) to the
exigencies of the non-Jewish world, which allows them now to create a
secular state in a country built through religious imperatives.
However, reforming Islam is not something that a Muslim would consider.
Those who ask such question are always the non-Muslims. For a Muslim this
question is pointless. The thought of reform would not even pass the mind
of
Post by A***@somewhere.com
a Muslim. He would tell you that the problem with Islamic world is in the
inadequate interpretation of the Sharia and not in the Sharia itself.
Quran is considered to be the verbatim words of God. The verse "This day I
have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you, and
have
Post by A***@somewhere.com
chosen for you Islam as your religion" 5:3 reverberates in the ears of
every
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Muslim. It leaves no room for interpretations and reformations. How can
anyone improve or change something that is perfect?
History shows that all attempts to reform Islam have failed. The Sufis
tried
Post by A***@somewhere.com
to interpret the Quran esoterically and mystically. The Mu'tazelis went as
far as to suggest that if there is a contradiction between the revelation
and reason the latter should prevail. Some modern day Islamists such as
Ali
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Shariati and Sorush have tried to use Islam as a political tool to bring
Islamic world out of the dark ages and into the modern world. However all
these attempts have failed and Islam is now in it darkest phase of its
existence. As a matter of fact every time Islam is taken into equation,
even
Post by A***@somewhere.com
nominally, for a social change the result is catastrophic because the
gravitational pull of the Quran towards fundamentalism quashes every other
consideration. Quran cannot be interpreted and reformed. The will of God
cannot be surpassed by the will of people because of convenience and
expediency. Any minor deviation from the Quran is considered to be a
direct
Post by A***@somewhere.com
challenge to its authority and it invalidates the entire faith.
Islam is considered to be a "complete way of life"
This concept is eloquently explained in the Islamic site
Islamonline.net
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
"Islam is not a religion in the common, distorted meaning of the word,
confining its scope only to the private life of man. By saying that it is
a
Post by A***@somewhere.com
complete way of life, we mean that it caters for all the fields of human
existence. In fact, Islam provides guidance for all walks of life -
individual and social, material and moral, economic and political, legal
and
Post by A***@somewhere.com
cultural, national and international.
The Qur'an enjoins Man to enter the fold of Islam without any reservation
and to follow God's guidance in all fields of life."
In Islam politics and faith are intertwined. The separation of the two
would
Post by A***@somewhere.com
mean the end of faith. In criticism of Christianity the above site
continues: .
"Religion asks us to separate things of God from those of Caesar. Such a
judicial separation between the two means the degrading of both the
secular
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and the sacred. That religion is worth little, if the conscience of its
followers is not disturbed when war clouds are hanging over us all and
industrial conflicts are threatening social peace. Religion has weakened
Man
Post by A***@somewhere.com
's social conscience and moral sensitivity, by separating the things of
God
Post by A***@somewhere.com
from those of Caesar."
As for Islam, it totally denounces this concept of religion and clearly
states that its objectives are purification of the soul and the reform and
reconstruction of the society. "
We verily sent Our messengers with clear proofs and revealed with them the
scripture and the balance [i.e. the authority to establish justice], that
mankind may observe justice and the right measure.
The command is for none but Allah; He has commanded that you obey none but
Him; that is the right path.
[Muslims are] those who if We give them power in the land, establish [the
system of] salat (prayers and worship) and zakat (poor due) and enjoin
virtue and forbid vice and evil."
"Thus, even a cursory study of the teachings of Islam shows that it is an
all-embracing way of life and does not leave out any field of human
existence to become a playground for satanic forces."
That is true. A Muslim is supposed to get religious instructions about
everything. Even with which foot he ought to enter the toilet, which
direction to face, which foot to put his weight on during defecation and
how
Post by A***@somewhere.com
many rocks to use for cleaning purposes are topics that the foqaha, "the
doctors of the law" study for years to master and then guide the ummah who
in turn would not lift a finger without consulting such doctors.
Addressing the problem of Sharia for a Muslim is considered heresy. The
so-called moderate Muslims do not propose to scrap or change the Sharia.
So,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
what a moderate Muslim would say about the law of stoning? He would deny
that this is an Islamic law and he would challenge you to find such a
thing
Post by A***@somewhere.com
in the Quran. He is right! Stoning does not exist in the Quran. But it
exists in the Sunnah and the Sunnah (Muhammad's own examples) is the major
source of the Sharia law.
In Islam if there is no specific reference to a law, the Judaic law should
apply. Stoning the adulterers is a law prescribed in Deuteronomy 22:23,
and
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the prophet practiced stoning of adulterers as per various hadiths. (1,
2,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
3)
As the Imam of IslamOnline.net rightly states, Islam is not a religion at
all. Islam is politics. Islam's only objective is to reclaim the Earth for
Allah and establish the rule of Sharia. You take away that objective and
Islam as a whole becomes meaningless. It simply loses its raison d'être.
While Christ wanted to conquer the hearts of the people, Muhammad could
care
Post by A***@somewhere.com
less about people's hearts. He was interested in conquering cities and
establishing the dominion of Islam in the name of God.
The very word Islam means submission. The first duty of a Muslim is to
strive (make Jihad) and render the world submissive to Allah and his
messenger.
Ironically, the word peace in Islam, also derive from the same root SLM,
does not mean mutual and harmonious coexistence of two equal and sovereign
people. It means suppressing the non-Muslims and making them submissive to
the rule and dominance of Islam. Islam does not recognize the legitimacy
of
Post by A***@somewhere.com
any non-Islamic government especially over the Muslims.
"Yea, to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth; 24.42
and,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah),
never
Post by A***@somewhere.com
will it be accepted of him" 3:85. Muslims are pressed to "fight them [the
infidels] on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there
prevail
Post by A***@somewhere.com
justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere" 8:39,.
It must be noted that tumult and oppression means resisting the advance of
Islam. Justice and peace can only prevail when Islam becomes dominant and
other religions are subdued and their followers are reduced to tributaries
to the coffers of the Islamic state. They must "pay the Jizya with
willing
Post by A***@somewhere.com
submission, and feel themselves subdued".9:29.
I strongly disagree with those who compare Islam of today with the
Christianity of the Middle Ages and claim that since Christianity
eventually
Post by A***@somewhere.com
was reformed, Islam can also reform.
The proponents of reform have a very weak position to defend. Daniel Pipes
is one such scholar who believes, at least ostensibly, that Islam can be
reformed. The weakness of his position is picked up by his opponents who
rightly say, "Dr. Pipes seems to contradict himself. First he says that
there is nothing in Islam that contradicts democracy and then insists that
Sharia is antidemocratic."
Muslims are supposed to give their highest allegiance to Islam, not to
their
Post by A***@somewhere.com
country and not even to their family. The scope is not as much to convert
the world into Islam but to dominate the world and to establish the law of
Sharia.
As a matter of fact when a Muslim army invaded a country, they did not
accept the conversion of the conquered right away. This would have
deprived
Post by A***@somewhere.com
them of the booty and to excise the Jizyah tax, which was the main
incentive
Post by A***@somewhere.com
of the Muslims to attack in the first place. The conquered people were
left
Post by A***@somewhere.com
to practice their religion for centuries providing the wealth for the
Islamic empire and finance the Islamic army to continue with their
conquests. As the following hadith shows the Muslims would provide
"protection" for the people of other religions, i.e. would not kill them,
under the condition that they pay the jizyah which as Umar said was fixed
by
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Allah as stipends for Muslims.
"According to the saying of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him): Allah has
placed truth upon Umar's tongue and heart. He fixed stipends for Muslims,
and provided protection for the people of other religions by levying
jizyah
Post by A***@somewhere.com
(poll-tax) on them, deducting no fifth from it, nor taking it as booty.
Therefore when Muslims say that Islam is a tolerant religion, which allows
the non-Muslims to keep their faith and practice their religion, in a sens
e
Post by A***@somewhere.com
they are telling the truth. However, that freedom has a catch and that is
to
Post by A***@somewhere.com
accept the status of dhimitude, become subservient to Muslims and "pay the
Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"
According to Muslim scholars, the verse 9:23 of the Quran that instructs
the
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Muslims not to take the infidels as their awlia (protectors, custodians,
rulers) implies that Muslims should not accept the rule and the governance
of non-Muslims. Hence they are required to overthrow the non-Islamic
governments, whenever they are able to and wherever they reside to
establish
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Islamic governments. Until then that country is considered to be Dar al
Harb
Post by A***@somewhere.com
(House of war). When the governance of the country is turned over to the
Muslims, that country becomes Dar al Islam (House of Islam) and Sharia
becomes the law of the land. This does not mean that everyone will be
forced
Post by A***@somewhere.com
to convert to Islam. It means that everyone becomes subject to Sharia and
those who are not believers will be classified as dhimmis, will have to
pay
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Jizyah and support the Ummah financially.
Islam can be reformed only by outside military force and coercion. Not by
persuasion, soft power
Post by alias
or attempting to win the minds and hearts of Muslims.
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
JimB
http://www.geocities.com/UAM01
Union Against Multi-Culty
Peter Terry
2004-05-05 22:47:33 UTC
Permalink
Shuddddup Muttly you've become as boring as that other
redneck moron woopso fukto!
Post by DemSoc
Marxism is a dodo that give support to islam, as do fem-nazis like Greer.
Just like the dodo....
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
No truth all. Powel knows more than you do obviously.
Islam is imperialism, but many religions went through it.
Just that the west had the reformation.
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Can Islam be reformed?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina31119.htm
By: Ali Sina
When the US Secretary of State Colin Powel said Islam is not
incompatible
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
with democracy, the spokesman of the Islamic Republic of Iran Hamid
Reza
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Asefi mocked him and said "US officials' comments on Islam clearly
prove
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
they do know nothing about Islam and Muslims.
If Asefi has said only one word of truth in his entire life, this is
it.
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Today the question that everyone asks is whether Islam can be
reformed
Post by DemSoc
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
whether it can accommodate the democracy.
A friend of mine wrote: "Pentateuch is very similar to the Quran: same
intolerance, same draconian laws, etc. yet the great part of the Jews
finally rejected the literal interpretation of their holy scriptures
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
proved they could evolve."
Also Christianity has allowed for change, The Church of the 16th
century
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
was
Post by A***@somewhere.com
as repressive as the Talibans and the Wahhabis. Yet Reformation took
place,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
nonetheless. And even the Catholic Church is finally opening up.
Can't then we extrapolate that the same could happen to Islam?
The idea that since Christianity and Judaism reformed then Islam can
also
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
be
Post by A***@somewhere.com
reformed is untenable. Islam is not comparable to Christianity,
Judaism or
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
any other religion.
Christianity is essentially a religion of the heart. It were
statements
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
such
Post by A***@somewhere.com
as "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" and "My kingdom is not of
this
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
world" that allowed the Christians to keep their faith while
permitting
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
secular governments to evolve independent of the Church. A Christian
does
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
not feel any contradiction or dichotomy by living with secular laws
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
practicing his religious beliefs. One can be a Christian in his
heart
Post by DemSoc
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
secular in politics. Therefore reform in Christianity did not mean
renouncing faith.
There are very few Jews who believe that the Pentateuch is actually
the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
word
Post by A***@somewhere.com
of God. In all the five books attributed to Moses, he is referred to
in
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
third person. Then the Deuteronomy ends by giving an obituary about
Moses
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and how his tomb has been lost. This allows the Jews to be open
about
Post by DemSoc
the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
interpretation of the Bible as it is clear, at least to the thinking
majority of them, that the Bible is not the textual word of God but
written
Post by A***@somewhere.com
by humans, who were allegedly inspired, yet fallible nonetheless.
Also living in Diaspora for 2000 years with no temporal authority has
forced
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the Jews to learn how to adapt their Jewish laws (Halakhah) to the
exigencies of the non-Jewish world, which allows them now to create a
secular state in a country built through religious imperatives.
However, reforming Islam is not something that a Muslim would
consider.
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Those who ask such question are always the non-Muslims. For a Muslim
this
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
question is pointless. The thought of reform would not even pass the
mind
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
of
Post by A***@somewhere.com
a Muslim. He would tell you that the problem with Islamic world is
in
Post by DemSoc
the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
inadequate interpretation of the Sharia and not in the Sharia itself.
Quran is considered to be the verbatim words of God. The verse "This
day I
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you, and
have
Post by A***@somewhere.com
chosen for you Islam as your religion" 5:3 reverberates in the ears of
every
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Muslim. It leaves no room for interpretations and reformations. How
can
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
anyone improve or change something that is perfect?
History shows that all attempts to reform Islam have failed. The Sufis
tried
Post by A***@somewhere.com
to interpret the Quran esoterically and mystically. The Mu'tazelis
went as
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
far as to suggest that if there is a contradiction between the
revelation
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and reason the latter should prevail. Some modern day Islamists such
as
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Ali
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Shariati and Sorush have tried to use Islam as a political tool to
bring
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Islamic world out of the dark ages and into the modern world.
However
Post by DemSoc
all
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
these attempts have failed and Islam is now in it darkest phase of its
existence. As a matter of fact every time Islam is taken into
equation,
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
even
Post by A***@somewhere.com
nominally, for a social change the result is catastrophic because the
gravitational pull of the Quran towards fundamentalism quashes every
other
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
consideration. Quran cannot be interpreted and reformed. The will of
God
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
cannot be surpassed by the will of people because of convenience and
expediency. Any minor deviation from the Quran is considered to be a
direct
Post by A***@somewhere.com
challenge to its authority and it invalidates the entire faith.
Islam is considered to be a "complete way of life"
This concept is eloquently explained in the Islamic site
Islamonline.net
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
"Islam is not a religion in the common, distorted meaning of the word,
confining its scope only to the private life of man. By saying that
it
Post by DemSoc
is
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
a
Post by A***@somewhere.com
complete way of life, we mean that it caters for all the fields of
human
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
existence. In fact, Islam provides guidance for all walks of life -
individual and social, material and moral, economic and political,
legal
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
and
Post by A***@somewhere.com
cultural, national and international.
The Qur'an enjoins Man to enter the fold of Islam without any
reservation
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and to follow God's guidance in all fields of life."
In Islam politics and faith are intertwined. The separation of the two
would
Post by A***@somewhere.com
mean the end of faith. In criticism of Christianity the above site
continues: .
"Religion asks us to separate things of God from those of Caesar.
Such
Post by DemSoc
a
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
judicial separation between the two means the degrading of both the
secular
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and the sacred. That religion is worth little, if the conscience of
its
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
followers is not disturbed when war clouds are hanging over us all and
industrial conflicts are threatening social peace. Religion has
weakened
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Man
Post by A***@somewhere.com
's social conscience and moral sensitivity, by separating the things
of
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
God
Post by A***@somewhere.com
from those of Caesar."
As for Islam, it totally denounces this concept of religion and
clearly
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
states that its objectives are purification of the soul and the
reform
Post by DemSoc
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
reconstruction of the society. "
We verily sent Our messengers with clear proofs and revealed with
them
Post by DemSoc
the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
scripture and the balance [i.e. the authority to establish justice],
that
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
mankind may observe justice and the right measure.
The command is for none but Allah; He has commanded that you obey
none
Post by DemSoc
but
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Him; that is the right path.
[Muslims are] those who if We give them power in the land, establish
[the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
system of] salat (prayers and worship) and zakat (poor due) and enjoin
virtue and forbid vice and evil."
"Thus, even a cursory study of the teachings of Islam shows that it
is
Post by DemSoc
an
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
all-embracing way of life and does not leave out any field of human
existence to become a playground for satanic forces."
That is true. A Muslim is supposed to get religious instructions about
everything. Even with which foot he ought to enter the toilet, which
direction to face, which foot to put his weight on during defecation
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
how
Post by A***@somewhere.com
many rocks to use for cleaning purposes are topics that the foqaha,
"the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
doctors of the law" study for years to master and then guide the
ummah
Post by DemSoc
who
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
in turn would not lift a finger without consulting such doctors.
Addressing the problem of Sharia for a Muslim is considered heresy.
The
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
so-called moderate Muslims do not propose to scrap or change the
Sharia.
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
So,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
what a moderate Muslim would say about the law of stoning? He would
deny
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
that this is an Islamic law and he would challenge you to find such a
thing
Post by A***@somewhere.com
in the Quran. He is right! Stoning does not exist in the Quran. But it
exists in the Sunnah and the Sunnah (Muhammad's own examples) is the
major
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
source of the Sharia law.
In Islam if there is no specific reference to a law, the Judaic law
should
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
apply. Stoning the adulterers is a law prescribed in Deuteronomy
22:23,
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
and
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the prophet practiced stoning of adulterers as per various hadiths.
(1,
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
2,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
3)
As the Imam of IslamOnline.net rightly states, Islam is not a
religion
Post by DemSoc
at
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
all. Islam is politics. Islam's only objective is to reclaim the
Earth
Post by DemSoc
for
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Allah and establish the rule of Sharia. You take away that objective
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Islam as a whole becomes meaningless. It simply loses its raison
d'être.
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
While Christ wanted to conquer the hearts of the people, Muhammad
could
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
care
Post by A***@somewhere.com
less about people's hearts. He was interested in conquering cities and
establishing the dominion of Islam in the name of God.
The very word Islam means submission. The first duty of a Muslim is to
strive (make Jihad) and render the world submissive to Allah and his
messenger.
Ironically, the word peace in Islam, also derive from the same root
SLM,
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
does not mean mutual and harmonious coexistence of two equal and
sovereign
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
people. It means suppressing the non-Muslims and making them
submissive to
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the rule and dominance of Islam. Islam does not recognize the
legitimacy
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
of
Post by A***@somewhere.com
any non-Islamic government especially over the Muslims.
"Yea, to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth;
24.42
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
and,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah),
never
Post by A***@somewhere.com
will it be accepted of him" 3:85. Muslims are pressed to "fight them
[the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
infidels] on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there
prevail
Post by A***@somewhere.com
justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere" 8:39,.
It must be noted that tumult and oppression means resisting the
advance of
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Islam. Justice and peace can only prevail when Islam becomes
dominant
Post by DemSoc
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
other religions are subdued and their followers are reduced to
tributaries
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
to the coffers of the Islamic state. They must "pay the Jizya with
willing
Post by A***@somewhere.com
submission, and feel themselves subdued".9:29.
I strongly disagree with those who compare Islam of today with the
Christianity of the Middle Ages and claim that since Christianity
eventually
Post by A***@somewhere.com
was reformed, Islam can also reform.
The proponents of reform have a very weak position to defend. Daniel
Pipes
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
is one such scholar who believes, at least ostensibly, that Islam
can
Post by DemSoc
be
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
reformed. The weakness of his position is picked up by his opponents
who
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
rightly say, "Dr. Pipes seems to contradict himself. First he says
that
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
there is nothing in Islam that contradicts democracy and then
insists
Post by DemSoc
that
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Sharia is antidemocratic."
Muslims are supposed to give their highest allegiance to Islam, not to
their
Post by A***@somewhere.com
country and not even to their family. The scope is not as much to
convert
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the world into Islam but to dominate the world and to establish the
law of
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Sharia.
As a matter of fact when a Muslim army invaded a country, they did not
accept the conversion of the conquered right away. This would have
deprived
Post by A***@somewhere.com
them of the booty and to excise the Jizyah tax, which was the main
incentive
Post by A***@somewhere.com
of the Muslims to attack in the first place. The conquered people were
left
Post by A***@somewhere.com
to practice their religion for centuries providing the wealth for the
Islamic empire and finance the Islamic army to continue with their
conquests. As the following hadith shows the Muslims would provide
"protection" for the people of other religions, i.e. would not kill
them,
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
under the condition that they pay the jizyah which as Umar said was
fixed
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
by
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Allah as stipends for Muslims.
"According to the saying of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him): Allah has
placed truth upon Umar's tongue and heart. He fixed stipends for
Muslims,
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and provided protection for the people of other religions by levying
jizyah
Post by A***@somewhere.com
(poll-tax) on them, deducting no fifth from it, nor taking it as
booty.
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Therefore when Muslims say that Islam is a tolerant religion, which
allows
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the non-Muslims to keep their faith and practice their religion, in
a
Post by DemSoc
sens
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
e
Post by A***@somewhere.com
they are telling the truth. However, that freedom has a catch and
that
Post by DemSoc
is
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
to
Post by A***@somewhere.com
accept the status of dhimitude, become subservient to Muslims and
"pay
Post by DemSoc
the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"
According to Muslim scholars, the verse 9:23 of the Quran that
instructs
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
the
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Muslims not to take the infidels as their awlia (protectors,
custodians,
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
rulers) implies that Muslims should not accept the rule and the
governance
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
of non-Muslims. Hence they are required to overthrow the non-Islamic
governments, whenever they are able to and wherever they reside to
establish
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Islamic governments. Until then that country is considered to be Dar
al
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Harb
Post by A***@somewhere.com
(House of war). When the governance of the country is turned over to
the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Muslims, that country becomes Dar al Islam (House of Islam) and Sharia
becomes the law of the land. This does not mean that everyone will be
forced
Post by A***@somewhere.com
to convert to Islam. It means that everyone becomes subject to
Sharia
Post by DemSoc
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
those who are not believers will be classified as dhimmis, will have
to
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
pay
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Jizyah and support the Ummah financially.
Islam can be reformed only by outside military force and coercion. Not by
persuasion, soft power
Post by alias
or attempting to win the minds and hearts of Muslims.
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
JimB
http://www.geocities.com/UAM01
Union Against Multi-Culty
DemSoc
2004-05-09 14:22:16 UTC
Permalink
Typical racism fom Brown's toxis avenger.
Post by Peter Terry
Shuddddup Muttly you've become as boring as that other
redneck moron woopso fukto!
Post by DemSoc
Marxism is a dodo that give support to islam, as do fem-nazis like Greer.
Just like the dodo....
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
No truth all. Powel knows more than you do obviously.
Islam is imperialism, but many religions went through it.
Just that the west had the reformation.
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Can Islam be reformed?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina31119.htm
By: Ali Sina
When the US Secretary of State Colin Powel said Islam is not
incompatible
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
with democracy, the spokesman of the Islamic Republic of Iran Hamid
Reza
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Asefi mocked him and said "US officials' comments on Islam clearly
prove
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
they do know nothing about Islam and Muslims.
If Asefi has said only one word of truth in his entire life, this is
it.
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Today the question that everyone asks is whether Islam can be
reformed
Post by DemSoc
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
whether it can accommodate the democracy.
same
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
intolerance, same draconian laws, etc. yet the great part of the
Jews
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
finally rejected the literal interpretation of their holy scriptures
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
proved they could evolve."
Also Christianity has allowed for change, The Church of the 16th
century
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
was
Post by A***@somewhere.com
as repressive as the Talibans and the Wahhabis. Yet Reformation took
place,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
nonetheless. And even the Catholic Church is finally opening up.
Can't then we extrapolate that the same could happen to Islam?
The idea that since Christianity and Judaism reformed then Islam can
also
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
be
Post by A***@somewhere.com
reformed is untenable. Islam is not comparable to Christianity,
Judaism or
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
any other religion.
Christianity is essentially a religion of the heart. It were
statements
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
such
Post by A***@somewhere.com
as "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" and "My kingdom is not of
this
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
world" that allowed the Christians to keep their faith while
permitting
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
secular governments to evolve independent of the Church. A Christian
does
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
not feel any contradiction or dichotomy by living with secular laws
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
practicing his religious beliefs. One can be a Christian in his
heart
Post by DemSoc
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
secular in politics. Therefore reform in Christianity did not mean
renouncing faith.
There are very few Jews who believe that the Pentateuch is actually
the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
word
Post by A***@somewhere.com
of God. In all the five books attributed to Moses, he is referred to
in
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
third person. Then the Deuteronomy ends by giving an obituary about
Moses
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and how his tomb has been lost. This allows the Jews to be open
about
Post by DemSoc
the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
interpretation of the Bible as it is clear, at least to the thinking
majority of them, that the Bible is not the textual word of God but
written
Post by A***@somewhere.com
by humans, who were allegedly inspired, yet fallible nonetheless.
Also living in Diaspora for 2000 years with no temporal authority
has
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
forced
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the Jews to learn how to adapt their Jewish laws (Halakhah) to the
exigencies of the non-Jewish world, which allows them now to
create
Post by Peter Terry
a
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
secular state in a country built through religious imperatives.
However, reforming Islam is not something that a Muslim would
consider.
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Those who ask such question are always the non-Muslims. For a Muslim
this
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
question is pointless. The thought of reform would not even pass the
mind
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
of
Post by A***@somewhere.com
a Muslim. He would tell you that the problem with Islamic world is
in
Post by DemSoc
the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
inadequate interpretation of the Sharia and not in the Sharia
itself.
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Quran is considered to be the verbatim words of God. The verse "This
day I
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you,
and
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
have
Post by A***@somewhere.com
chosen for you Islam as your religion" 5:3 reverberates in the
ears
Post by Peter Terry
of
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
every
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Muslim. It leaves no room for interpretations and reformations. How
can
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
anyone improve or change something that is perfect?
History shows that all attempts to reform Islam have failed. The
Sufis
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
tried
Post by A***@somewhere.com
to interpret the Quran esoterically and mystically. The Mu'tazelis
went as
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
far as to suggest that if there is a contradiction between the
revelation
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and reason the latter should prevail. Some modern day Islamists such
as
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Ali
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Shariati and Sorush have tried to use Islam as a political tool to
bring
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Islamic world out of the dark ages and into the modern world.
However
Post by DemSoc
all
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
these attempts have failed and Islam is now in it darkest phase of
its
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
existence. As a matter of fact every time Islam is taken into
equation,
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
even
Post by A***@somewhere.com
nominally, for a social change the result is catastrophic because
the
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
gravitational pull of the Quran towards fundamentalism quashes every
other
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
consideration. Quran cannot be interpreted and reformed. The will of
God
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
cannot be surpassed by the will of people because of convenience and
expediency. Any minor deviation from the Quran is considered to be a
direct
Post by A***@somewhere.com
challenge to its authority and it invalidates the entire faith.
Islam is considered to be a "complete way of life"
This concept is eloquently explained in the Islamic site
Islamonline.net
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
"Islam is not a religion in the common, distorted meaning of the
word,
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
confining its scope only to the private life of man. By saying that
it
Post by DemSoc
is
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
a
Post by A***@somewhere.com
complete way of life, we mean that it caters for all the fields of
human
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
existence. In fact, Islam provides guidance for all walks of life -
individual and social, material and moral, economic and political,
legal
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
and
Post by A***@somewhere.com
cultural, national and international.
The Qur'an enjoins Man to enter the fold of Islam without any
reservation
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and to follow God's guidance in all fields of life."
In Islam politics and faith are intertwined. The separation of the
two
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
would
Post by A***@somewhere.com
mean the end of faith. In criticism of Christianity the above site
continues: .
"Religion asks us to separate things of God from those of Caesar.
Such
Post by DemSoc
a
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
judicial separation between the two means the degrading of both the
secular
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and the sacred. That religion is worth little, if the conscience of
its
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
followers is not disturbed when war clouds are hanging over us all
and
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
industrial conflicts are threatening social peace. Religion has
weakened
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Man
Post by A***@somewhere.com
's social conscience and moral sensitivity, by separating the things
of
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
God
Post by A***@somewhere.com
from those of Caesar."
As for Islam, it totally denounces this concept of religion and
clearly
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
states that its objectives are purification of the soul and the
reform
Post by DemSoc
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
reconstruction of the society. "
We verily sent Our messengers with clear proofs and revealed with
them
Post by DemSoc
the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
scripture and the balance [i.e. the authority to establish justice],
that
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
mankind may observe justice and the right measure.
The command is for none but Allah; He has commanded that you obey
none
Post by DemSoc
but
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Him; that is the right path.
[Muslims are] those who if We give them power in the land, establish
[the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
system of] salat (prayers and worship) and zakat (poor due) and
enjoin
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
virtue and forbid vice and evil."
"Thus, even a cursory study of the teachings of Islam shows that it
is
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an
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all-embracing way of life and does not leave out any field of human
existence to become a playground for satanic forces."
That is true. A Muslim is supposed to get religious instructions
about
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
everything. Even with which foot he ought to enter the toilet, which
direction to face, which foot to put his weight on during defecation
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
how
Post by A***@somewhere.com
many rocks to use for cleaning purposes are topics that the foqaha,
"the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
doctors of the law" study for years to master and then guide the
ummah
Post by DemSoc
who
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
in turn would not lift a finger without consulting such doctors.
Addressing the problem of Sharia for a Muslim is considered heresy.
The
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
so-called moderate Muslims do not propose to scrap or change the
Sharia.
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
So,
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what a moderate Muslim would say about the law of stoning? He would
deny
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
that this is an Islamic law and he would challenge you to find
such
Post by Peter Terry
a
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Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
thing
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in the Quran. He is right! Stoning does not exist in the Quran.
But
Post by Peter Terry
it
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exists in the Sunnah and the Sunnah (Muhammad's own examples) is the
major
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Post by DemSoc
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source of the Sharia law.
In Islam if there is no specific reference to a law, the Judaic law
should
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Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
apply. Stoning the adulterers is a law prescribed in Deuteronomy
22:23,
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Post by DemSoc
and
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the prophet practiced stoning of adulterers as per various hadiths.
(1,
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Post by DemSoc
2,
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3)
As the Imam of IslamOnline.net rightly states, Islam is not a
religion
Post by DemSoc
at
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all. Islam is politics. Islam's only objective is to reclaim the
Earth
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for
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Allah and establish the rule of Sharia. You take away that objective
and
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Islam as a whole becomes meaningless. It simply loses its raison
d'être.
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While Christ wanted to conquer the hearts of the people, Muhammad
could
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care
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less about people's hearts. He was interested in conquering cities
and
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establishing the dominion of Islam in the name of God.
The very word Islam means submission. The first duty of a Muslim
is
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to
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strive (make Jihad) and render the world submissive to Allah and his
messenger.
Ironically, the word peace in Islam, also derive from the same root
SLM,
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does not mean mutual and harmonious coexistence of two equal and
sovereign
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people. It means suppressing the non-Muslims and making them
submissive to
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Post by DemSoc
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the rule and dominance of Islam. Islam does not recognize the
legitimacy
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Post by DemSoc
of
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any non-Islamic government especially over the Muslims.
"Yea, to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth;
24.42
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Post by DemSoc
and,
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"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to
Allah),
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
never
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will it be accepted of him" 3:85. Muslims are pressed to "fight them
[the
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Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
infidels] on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there
prevail
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justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere" 8:39,.
It must be noted that tumult and oppression means resisting the
advance of
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Islam. Justice and peace can only prevail when Islam becomes
dominant
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and
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other religions are subdued and their followers are reduced to
tributaries
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to the coffers of the Islamic state. They must "pay the Jizya with
willing
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submission, and feel themselves subdued".9:29.
I strongly disagree with those who compare Islam of today with the
Christianity of the Middle Ages and claim that since Christianity
eventually
Post by A***@somewhere.com
was reformed, Islam can also reform.
The proponents of reform have a very weak position to defend. Daniel
Pipes
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
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is one such scholar who believes, at least ostensibly, that Islam
can
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be
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reformed. The weakness of his position is picked up by his opponents
who
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rightly say, "Dr. Pipes seems to contradict himself. First he says
that
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Post by DemSoc
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there is nothing in Islam that contradicts democracy and then
insists
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that
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Sharia is antidemocratic."
Muslims are supposed to give their highest allegiance to Islam,
not
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to
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their
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country and not even to their family. The scope is not as much to
convert
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the world into Islam but to dominate the world and to establish the
law of
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Sharia.
As a matter of fact when a Muslim army invaded a country, they did
not
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accept the conversion of the conquered right away. This would have
deprived
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them of the booty and to excise the Jizyah tax, which was the main
incentive
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of the Muslims to attack in the first place. The conquered people
were
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left
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to practice their religion for centuries providing the wealth for
the
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Post by DemSoc
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Islamic empire and finance the Islamic army to continue with their
conquests. As the following hadith shows the Muslims would provide
"protection" for the people of other religions, i.e. would not kill
them,
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
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under the condition that they pay the jizyah which as Umar said was
fixed
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by
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Allah as stipends for Muslims.
"According to the saying of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him): Allah
has
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placed truth upon Umar's tongue and heart. He fixed stipends for
Muslims,
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and provided protection for the people of other religions by levying
jizyah
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(poll-tax) on them, deducting no fifth from it, nor taking it as
booty.
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Therefore when Muslims say that Islam is a tolerant religion, which
allows
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the non-Muslims to keep their faith and practice their religion, in
a
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sens
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e
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they are telling the truth. However, that freedom has a catch and
that
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is
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to
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accept the status of dhimitude, become subservient to Muslims and
"pay
Post by DemSoc
the
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Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"
According to Muslim scholars, the verse 9:23 of the Quran that
instructs
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the
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Muslims not to take the infidels as their awlia (protectors,
custodians,
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Post by DemSoc
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rulers) implies that Muslims should not accept the rule and the
governance
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of non-Muslims. Hence they are required to overthrow the non-Islamic
governments, whenever they are able to and wherever they reside to
establish
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Islamic governments. Until then that country is considered to be Dar
al
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Harb
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(House of war). When the governance of the country is turned over to
the
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Muslims, that country becomes Dar al Islam (House of Islam) and
Sharia
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becomes the law of the land. This does not mean that everyone will
be
Post by DemSoc
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forced
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to convert to Islam. It means that everyone becomes subject to
Sharia
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and
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those who are not believers will be classified as dhimmis, will have
to
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pay
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Jizyah and support the Ummah financially.
Islam can be reformed only by outside military force and coercion.
Not
Post by Peter Terry
by
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persuasion, soft power
Post by alias
or attempting to win the minds and hearts of Muslims.
Post by DemSoc
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JimB
http://www.geocities.com/UAM01
Union Against Multi-Culty
Peter Terry
2004-05-10 09:46:54 UTC
Permalink
Muttly!! how many time have I told you to use your spell checker!
Post by DemSoc
Typical racism fom Brown's toxis avenger.
Post by Peter Terry
Shuddddup Muttly you've become as boring as that other
redneck moron woopso fukto!
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Marxism is a dodo that give support to islam, as do fem-nazis like
Greer.
Post by Peter Terry
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Just like the dodo....
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No truth all. Powel knows more than you do obviously.
Islam is imperialism, but many religions went through it.
Just that the west had the reformation.
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Can Islam be reformed?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina31119.htm
By: Ali Sina
When the US Secretary of State Colin Powel said Islam is not
incompatible
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with democracy, the spokesman of the Islamic Republic of Iran
Hamid
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Reza
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Asefi mocked him and said "US officials' comments on Islam clearly
prove
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they do know nothing about Islam and Muslims.
If Asefi has said only one word of truth in his entire life,
this
Post by DemSoc
is
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it.
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Today the question that everyone asks is whether Islam can be
reformed
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and
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whether it can accommodate the democracy.
same
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intolerance, same draconian laws, etc. yet the great part of the
Jews
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finally rejected the literal interpretation of their holy
scriptures
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and
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proved they could evolve."
Also Christianity has allowed for change, The Church of the 16th
century
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was
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as repressive as the Talibans and the Wahhabis. Yet Reformation
took
Post by Peter Terry
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place,
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nonetheless. And even the Catholic Church is finally opening up.
Can't then we extrapolate that the same could happen to Islam?
The idea that since Christianity and Judaism reformed then Islam
can
Post by Peter Terry
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also
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be
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reformed is untenable. Islam is not comparable to Christianity,
Judaism or
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any other religion.
Christianity is essentially a religion of the heart. It were
statements
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such
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as "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" and "My kingdom is
not
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of
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this
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Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
world" that allowed the Christians to keep their faith while
permitting
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secular governments to evolve independent of the Church. A
Christian
Post by Peter Terry
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does
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not feel any contradiction or dichotomy by living with secular
laws
Post by Peter Terry
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and
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practicing his religious beliefs. One can be a Christian in his
heart
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and
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secular in politics. Therefore reform in Christianity did not mean
renouncing faith.
There are very few Jews who believe that the Pentateuch is
actually
Post by Peter Terry
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the
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word
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of God. In all the five books attributed to Moses, he is
referred
Post by DemSoc
to
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in
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third person. Then the Deuteronomy ends by giving an obituary
about
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Moses
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and how his tomb has been lost. This allows the Jews to be open
about
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the
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Post by DemSoc
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interpretation of the Bible as it is clear, at least to the
thinking
Post by Peter Terry
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majority of them, that the Bible is not the textual word of God
but
Post by Peter Terry
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written
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by humans, who were allegedly inspired, yet fallible
nonetheless.
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
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Also living in Diaspora for 2000 years with no temporal authority
has
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forced
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the Jews to learn how to adapt their Jewish laws (Halakhah) to the
exigencies of the non-Jewish world, which allows them now to
create
Post by Peter Terry
a
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secular state in a country built through religious imperatives.
However, reforming Islam is not something that a Muslim would
consider.
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Those who ask such question are always the non-Muslims. For a
Muslim
Post by Peter Terry
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this
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question is pointless. The thought of reform would not even pass
the
Post by Peter Terry
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mind
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of
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a Muslim. He would tell you that the problem with Islamic world is
in
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the
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inadequate interpretation of the Sharia and not in the Sharia
itself.
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Quran is considered to be the verbatim words of God. The verse
"This
Post by Peter Terry
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day I
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have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you,
and
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have
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chosen for you Islam as your religion" 5:3 reverberates in the
ears
Post by Peter Terry
of
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every
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Muslim. It leaves no room for interpretations and reformations.
How
Post by Peter Terry
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can
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anyone improve or change something that is perfect?
History shows that all attempts to reform Islam have failed. The
Sufis
Post by DemSoc
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tried
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to interpret the Quran esoterically and mystically. The Mu'tazelis
went as
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far as to suggest that if there is a contradiction between the
revelation
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and reason the latter should prevail. Some modern day Islamists
such
Post by Peter Terry
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as
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Ali
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Shariati and Sorush have tried to use Islam as a political tool to
bring
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Islamic world out of the dark ages and into the modern world.
However
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all
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these attempts have failed and Islam is now in it darkest phase of
its
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existence. As a matter of fact every time Islam is taken into
equation,
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even
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nominally, for a social change the result is catastrophic because
the
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gravitational pull of the Quran towards fundamentalism quashes
every
Post by Peter Terry
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other
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consideration. Quran cannot be interpreted and reformed. The
will
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of
Post by Peter Terry
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God
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cannot be surpassed by the will of people because of convenience
and
Post by Peter Terry
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expediency. Any minor deviation from the Quran is considered to
be
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a
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direct
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challenge to its authority and it invalidates the entire faith.
Islam is considered to be a "complete way of life"
This concept is eloquently explained in the Islamic site
Islamonline.net
Post by alias
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"Islam is not a religion in the common, distorted meaning of the
word,
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Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
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confining its scope only to the private life of man. By saying
that
Post by Peter Terry
it
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is
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Post by DemSoc
a
Post by A***@somewhere.com
complete way of life, we mean that it caters for all the fields of
human
Post by alias
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
existence. In fact, Islam provides guidance for all walks of
life -
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
individual and social, material and moral, economic and political,
legal
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
and
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cultural, national and international.
The Qur'an enjoins Man to enter the fold of Islam without any
reservation
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and to follow God's guidance in all fields of life."
In Islam politics and faith are intertwined. The separation of the
two
Post by DemSoc
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would
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mean the end of faith. In criticism of Christianity the above site
continues: .
"Religion asks us to separate things of God from those of Caesar.
Such
Post by DemSoc
a
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judicial separation between the two means the degrading of both
the
Post by Peter Terry
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Post by DemSoc
secular
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and the sacred. That religion is worth little, if the conscience
of
Post by Peter Terry
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its
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Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
followers is not disturbed when war clouds are hanging over us all
and
Post by DemSoc
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Post by DemSoc
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industrial conflicts are threatening social peace. Religion has
weakened
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Man
Post by A***@somewhere.com
's social conscience and moral sensitivity, by separating the
things
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
of
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
God
Post by A***@somewhere.com
from those of Caesar."
As for Islam, it totally denounces this concept of religion and
clearly
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
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states that its objectives are purification of the soul and the
reform
Post by DemSoc
and
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reconstruction of the society. "
We verily sent Our messengers with clear proofs and revealed with
them
Post by DemSoc
the
Post by alias
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
scripture and the balance [i.e. the authority to establish
justice],
Post by Peter Terry
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that
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mankind may observe justice and the right measure.
The command is for none but Allah; He has commanded that you obey
none
Post by DemSoc
but
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Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Him; that is the right path.
[Muslims are] those who if We give them power in the land,
establish
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
[the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
system of] salat (prayers and worship) and zakat (poor due) and
enjoin
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
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virtue and forbid vice and evil."
"Thus, even a cursory study of the teachings of Islam shows that
it
Post by Peter Terry
is
Post by DemSoc
an
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
all-embracing way of life and does not leave out any field of
human
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
existence to become a playground for satanic forces."
That is true. A Muslim is supposed to get religious instructions
about
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
everything. Even with which foot he ought to enter the toilet,
which
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
direction to face, which foot to put his weight on during
defecation
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
how
Post by A***@somewhere.com
many rocks to use for cleaning purposes are topics that the
foqaha,
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
"the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
doctors of the law" study for years to master and then guide the
ummah
Post by DemSoc
who
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
in turn would not lift a finger without consulting such doctors.
Addressing the problem of Sharia for a Muslim is considered
heresy.
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
The
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
so-called moderate Muslims do not propose to scrap or change the
Sharia.
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
So,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
what a moderate Muslim would say about the law of stoning? He
would
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
deny
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
that this is an Islamic law and he would challenge you to find
such
Post by Peter Terry
a
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
thing
Post by A***@somewhere.com
in the Quran. He is right! Stoning does not exist in the Quran.
But
Post by Peter Terry
it
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
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exists in the Sunnah and the Sunnah (Muhammad's own examples) is
the
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major
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source of the Sharia law.
In Islam if there is no specific reference to a law, the Judaic
law
Post by Peter Terry
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should
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apply. Stoning the adulterers is a law prescribed in Deuteronomy
22:23,
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Post by DemSoc
and
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the prophet practiced stoning of adulterers as per various
hadiths.
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
(1,
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Post by DemSoc
2,
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3)
As the Imam of IslamOnline.net rightly states, Islam is not a
religion
Post by DemSoc
at
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all. Islam is politics. Islam's only objective is to reclaim the
Earth
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for
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Allah and establish the rule of Sharia. You take away that
objective
Post by Peter Terry
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and
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Islam as a whole becomes meaningless. It simply loses its raison
d'être.
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
While Christ wanted to conquer the hearts of the people, Muhammad
could
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care
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less about people's hearts. He was interested in conquering cities
and
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establishing the dominion of Islam in the name of God.
The very word Islam means submission. The first duty of a Muslim
is
Post by Peter Terry
to
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strive (make Jihad) and render the world submissive to Allah and
his
Post by Peter Terry
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messenger.
Ironically, the word peace in Islam, also derive from the same
root
Post by Peter Terry
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SLM,
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does not mean mutual and harmonious coexistence of two equal and
sovereign
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people. It means suppressing the non-Muslims and making them
submissive to
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Post by DemSoc
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the rule and dominance of Islam. Islam does not recognize the
legitimacy
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
of
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any non-Islamic government especially over the Muslims.
"Yea, to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth;
24.42
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
and,
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"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to
Allah),
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Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
never
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will it be accepted of him" 3:85. Muslims are pressed to "fight
them
Post by Peter Terry
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[the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
infidels] on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and
there
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
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prevail
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justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere" 8:39,.
It must be noted that tumult and oppression means resisting the
advance of
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Post by DemSoc
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Islam. Justice and peace can only prevail when Islam becomes
dominant
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and
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other religions are subdued and their followers are reduced to
tributaries
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to the coffers of the Islamic state. They must "pay the Jizya
with
Post by Peter Terry
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Post by DemSoc
willing
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submission, and feel themselves subdued".9:29.
I strongly disagree with those who compare Islam of today with the
Christianity of the Middle Ages and claim that since
Christianity
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
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eventually
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was reformed, Islam can also reform.
The proponents of reform have a very weak position to defend.
Daniel
Post by Peter Terry
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Pipes
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is one such scholar who believes, at least ostensibly, that Islam
can
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be
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reformed. The weakness of his position is picked up by his
opponents
Post by Peter Terry
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who
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rightly say, "Dr. Pipes seems to contradict himself. First he says
that
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Post by DemSoc
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there is nothing in Islam that contradicts democracy and then
insists
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that
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Sharia is antidemocratic."
Muslims are supposed to give their highest allegiance to Islam,
not
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to
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their
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country and not even to their family. The scope is not as much to
convert
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the world into Islam but to dominate the world and to establish
the
Post by Peter Terry
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law of
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Sharia.
As a matter of fact when a Muslim army invaded a country, they did
not
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accept the conversion of the conquered right away. This would have
deprived
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them of the booty and to excise the Jizyah tax, which was the main
incentive
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of the Muslims to attack in the first place. The conquered people
were
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left
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to practice their religion for centuries providing the wealth for
the
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Islamic empire and finance the Islamic army to continue with their
conquests. As the following hadith shows the Muslims would provide
"protection" for the people of other religions, i.e. would not
kill
Post by Peter Terry
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them,
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under the condition that they pay the jizyah which as Umar said
was
Post by Peter Terry
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fixed
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by
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Allah as stipends for Muslims.
"According to the saying of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him): Allah
has
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placed truth upon Umar's tongue and heart. He fixed stipends for
Muslims,
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and provided protection for the people of other religions by
levying
Post by Peter Terry
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jizyah
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(poll-tax) on them, deducting no fifth from it, nor taking it as
booty.
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Therefore when Muslims say that Islam is a tolerant religion,
which
Post by Peter Terry
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allows
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the non-Muslims to keep their faith and practice their religion,
in
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a
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sens
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e
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they are telling the truth. However, that freedom has a catch and
that
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is
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to
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accept the status of dhimitude, become subservient to Muslims and
"pay
Post by DemSoc
the
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Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"
According to Muslim scholars, the verse 9:23 of the Quran that
instructs
Post by alias
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the
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Muslims not to take the infidels as their awlia (protectors,
custodians,
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Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
rulers) implies that Muslims should not accept the rule and the
governance
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of non-Muslims. Hence they are required to overthrow the
non-Islamic
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governments, whenever they are able to and wherever they reside to
establish
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Islamic governments. Until then that country is considered to be
Dar
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al
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Harb
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(House of war). When the governance of the country is turned
over
Post by DemSoc
to
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the
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
Muslims, that country becomes Dar al Islam (House of Islam) and
Sharia
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becomes the law of the land. This does not mean that everyone will
be
Post by DemSoc
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forced
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to convert to Islam. It means that everyone becomes subject to
Sharia
Post by DemSoc
and
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those who are not believers will be classified as dhimmis, will
have
Post by Peter Terry
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to
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pay
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Jizyah and support the Ummah financially.
Islam can be reformed only by outside military force and coercion.
Not
Post by Peter Terry
by
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persuasion, soft power
Post by alias
or attempting to win the minds and hearts of Muslims.
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
JimB
http://www.geocities.com/UAM01
Union Against Multi-Culty
DemSoc
2004-05-11 14:29:15 UTC
Permalink
Such is the pathetic lies of islam that you support so much. You hate jews
and white people. You are the nazi racist trash.

Muttly was a Hanna Barbara cartoon character that snikered when ever the HUN
(as it was wwi) lost and failed to kill the pigoen.

You can not kill the truth you Saddam want-to-be.

I am posting from vietnam....
Post by Peter Terry
Muttly!! how many time have I told you to use your spell checker!
Post by DemSoc
Typical racism fom Brown's toxis avenger.
Post by Peter Terry
Shuddddup Muttly you've become as boring as that other
redneck moron woopso fukto!
Post by DemSoc
Marxism is a dodo that give support to islam, as do fem-nazis like
Greer.
Post by Peter Terry
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Just like the dodo....
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No truth all. Powel knows more than you do obviously.
Islam is imperialism, but many religions went through it.
Just that the west had the reformation.
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Can Islam be reformed?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina31119.htm
By: Ali Sina
When the US Secretary of State Colin Powel said Islam is not
incompatible
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with democracy, the spokesman of the Islamic Republic of Iran
Hamid
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Reza
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Asefi mocked him and said "US officials' comments on Islam
clearly
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prove
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they do know nothing about Islam and Muslims.
If Asefi has said only one word of truth in his entire life,
this
Post by DemSoc
is
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it.
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Today the question that everyone asks is whether Islam can be
reformed
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and
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whether it can accommodate the democracy.
A friend of mine wrote: "Pentateuch is very similar to the
same
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intolerance, same draconian laws, etc. yet the great part of the
Jews
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finally rejected the literal interpretation of their holy
scriptures
Post by Peter Terry
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and
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proved they could evolve."
Also Christianity has allowed for change, The Church of the 16th
century
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was
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as repressive as the Talibans and the Wahhabis. Yet Reformation
took
Post by Peter Terry
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place,
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nonetheless. And even the Catholic Church is finally opening up.
Can't then we extrapolate that the same could happen to Islam?
The idea that since Christianity and Judaism reformed then Islam
can
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also
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be
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reformed is untenable. Islam is not comparable to
Christianity,
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Judaism or
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any other religion.
Christianity is essentially a religion of the heart. It were
statements
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such
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as "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" and "My kingdom is
not
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of
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this
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
world" that allowed the Christians to keep their faith while
permitting
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secular governments to evolve independent of the Church. A
Christian
Post by Peter Terry
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does
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not feel any contradiction or dichotomy by living with secular
laws
Post by Peter Terry
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and
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practicing his religious beliefs. One can be a Christian in his
heart
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and
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secular in politics. Therefore reform in Christianity did not
mean
Post by DemSoc
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renouncing faith.
There are very few Jews who believe that the Pentateuch is
actually
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the
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word
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of God. In all the five books attributed to Moses, he is
referred
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to
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in
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third person. Then the Deuteronomy ends by giving an obituary
about
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Moses
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and how his tomb has been lost. This allows the Jews to be open
about
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the
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interpretation of the Bible as it is clear, at least to the
thinking
Post by Peter Terry
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majority of them, that the Bible is not the textual word of God
but
Post by Peter Terry
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written
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by humans, who were allegedly inspired, yet fallible
nonetheless.
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
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Also living in Diaspora for 2000 years with no temporal
authority
Post by DemSoc
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has
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forced
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the Jews to learn how to adapt their Jewish laws (Halakhah) to
the
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
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exigencies of the non-Jewish world, which allows them now to
create
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a
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secular state in a country built through religious
imperatives.
Post by Peter Terry
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Post by Peter Terry
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However, reforming Islam is not something that a Muslim would
consider.
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Those who ask such question are always the non-Muslims. For a
Muslim
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this
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question is pointless. The thought of reform would not even pass
the
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mind
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of
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a Muslim. He would tell you that the problem with Islamic
world
Post by Peter Terry
is
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in
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the
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
inadequate interpretation of the Sharia and not in the Sharia
itself.
Post by DemSoc
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Quran is considered to be the verbatim words of God. The verse
"This
Post by Peter Terry
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day I
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have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon
you,
Post by DemSoc
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and
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have
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chosen for you Islam as your religion" 5:3 reverberates in the
ears
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of
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every
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Muslim. It leaves no room for interpretations and
reformations.
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
How
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can
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anyone improve or change something that is perfect?
History shows that all attempts to reform Islam have failed. The
Sufis
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tried
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to interpret the Quran esoterically and mystically. The
Mu'tazelis
Post by DemSoc
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went as
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far as to suggest that if there is a contradiction between the
revelation
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and reason the latter should prevail. Some modern day Islamists
such
Post by Peter Terry
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as
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Post by DemSoc
Ali
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Shariati and Sorush have tried to use Islam as a political
tool
Post by Peter Terry
to
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Post by Peter Terry
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bring
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Islamic world out of the dark ages and into the modern world.
However
Post by DemSoc
all
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
these attempts have failed and Islam is now in it darkest
phase
Post by Peter Terry
of
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its
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existence. As a matter of fact every time Islam is taken into
equation,
Post by alias
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even
Post by A***@somewhere.com
nominally, for a social change the result is catastrophic
because
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
the
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Post by DemSoc
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gravitational pull of the Quran towards fundamentalism quashes
every
Post by Peter Terry
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other
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
consideration. Quran cannot be interpreted and reformed. The
will
Post by DemSoc
of
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God
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
cannot be surpassed by the will of people because of convenience
and
Post by Peter Terry
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
expediency. Any minor deviation from the Quran is considered to
be
Post by DemSoc
a
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Post by DemSoc
direct
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challenge to its authority and it invalidates the entire faith.
Islam is considered to be a "complete way of life"
This concept is eloquently explained in the Islamic site
Islamonline.net
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
"Islam is not a religion in the common, distorted meaning of the
word,
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
confining its scope only to the private life of man. By saying
that
Post by Peter Terry
it
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is
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Post by DemSoc
a
Post by A***@somewhere.com
complete way of life, we mean that it caters for all the
fields
Post by Peter Terry
of
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
human
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
existence. In fact, Islam provides guidance for all walks of
life -
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
individual and social, material and moral, economic and
political,
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
legal
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
and
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cultural, national and international.
The Qur'an enjoins Man to enter the fold of Islam without any
reservation
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and to follow God's guidance in all fields of life."
In Islam politics and faith are intertwined. The separation of
the
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
two
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
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would
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mean the end of faith. In criticism of Christianity the above
site
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
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Post by alias
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
continues: .
"Religion asks us to separate things of God from those of
Caesar.
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Such
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a
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
judicial separation between the two means the degrading of both
the
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
secular
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and the sacred. That religion is worth little, if the conscience
of
Post by Peter Terry
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its
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
followers is not disturbed when war clouds are hanging over us
all
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
and
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Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
industrial conflicts are threatening social peace. Religion has
weakened
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Man
Post by A***@somewhere.com
's social conscience and moral sensitivity, by separating the
things
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
of
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
God
Post by A***@somewhere.com
from those of Caesar."
As for Islam, it totally denounces this concept of religion and
clearly
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
states that its objectives are purification of the soul and the
reform
Post by DemSoc
and
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Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
reconstruction of the society. "
We verily sent Our messengers with clear proofs and revealed
with
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
them
Post by DemSoc
the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
scripture and the balance [i.e. the authority to establish
justice],
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
that
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
mankind may observe justice and the right measure.
The command is for none but Allah; He has commanded that you
obey
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
none
Post by DemSoc
but
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Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Him; that is the right path.
[Muslims are] those who if We give them power in the land,
establish
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
[the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
system of] salat (prayers and worship) and zakat (poor due) and
enjoin
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
virtue and forbid vice and evil."
"Thus, even a cursory study of the teachings of Islam shows that
it
Post by Peter Terry
is
Post by DemSoc
an
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
all-embracing way of life and does not leave out any field of
human
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
existence to become a playground for satanic forces."
That is true. A Muslim is supposed to get religious instructions
about
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
everything. Even with which foot he ought to enter the toilet,
which
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
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direction to face, which foot to put his weight on during
defecation
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and
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how
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many rocks to use for cleaning purposes are topics that the
foqaha,
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"the
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
doctors of the law" study for years to master and then guide the
ummah
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who
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in turn would not lift a finger without consulting such doctors.
Addressing the problem of Sharia for a Muslim is considered
heresy.
Post by Peter Terry
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The
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Post by DemSoc
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so-called moderate Muslims do not propose to scrap or change the
Sharia.
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So,
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what a moderate Muslim would say about the law of stoning? He
would
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deny
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that this is an Islamic law and he would challenge you to find
such
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a
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thing
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in the Quran. He is right! Stoning does not exist in the Quran.
But
Post by Peter Terry
it
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exists in the Sunnah and the Sunnah (Muhammad's own examples) is
the
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major
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source of the Sharia law.
In Islam if there is no specific reference to a law, the Judaic
law
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should
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apply. Stoning the adulterers is a law prescribed in Deuteronomy
22:23,
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and
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the prophet practiced stoning of adulterers as per various
hadiths.
Post by Peter Terry
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(1,
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2,
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3)
As the Imam of IslamOnline.net rightly states, Islam is not a
religion
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at
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all. Islam is politics. Islam's only objective is to reclaim the
Earth
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for
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Allah and establish the rule of Sharia. You take away that
objective
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and
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Islam as a whole becomes meaningless. It simply loses its raison
d'être.
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While Christ wanted to conquer the hearts of the people,
Muhammad
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Post by Peter Terry
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could
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care
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less about people's hearts. He was interested in conquering
cities
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and
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establishing the dominion of Islam in the name of God.
The very word Islam means submission. The first duty of a Muslim
is
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to
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strive (make Jihad) and render the world submissive to Allah and
his
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messenger.
Ironically, the word peace in Islam, also derive from the same
root
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SLM,
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does not mean mutual and harmonious coexistence of two equal and
sovereign
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people. It means suppressing the non-Muslims and making them
submissive to
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the rule and dominance of Islam. Islam does not recognize the
legitimacy
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of
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any non-Islamic government especially over the Muslims.
"Yea, to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the
earth;
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
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24.42
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and,
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"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to
Allah),
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never
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will it be accepted of him" 3:85. Muslims are pressed to "fight
them
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[the
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infidels] on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and
there
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prevail
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justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere" 8:39,.
It must be noted that tumult and oppression means resisting the
advance of
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Islam. Justice and peace can only prevail when Islam becomes
dominant
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and
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other religions are subdued and their followers are reduced to
tributaries
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to the coffers of the Islamic state. They must "pay the Jizya
with
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willing
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submission, and feel themselves subdued".9:29.
I strongly disagree with those who compare Islam of today with
the
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Christianity of the Middle Ages and claim that since
Christianity
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eventually
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was reformed, Islam can also reform.
The proponents of reform have a very weak position to defend.
Daniel
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Pipes
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is one such scholar who believes, at least ostensibly, that
Islam
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can
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be
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reformed. The weakness of his position is picked up by his
opponents
Post by Peter Terry
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who
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rightly say, "Dr. Pipes seems to contradict himself. First he
says
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
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that
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there is nothing in Islam that contradicts democracy and then
insists
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that
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Sharia is antidemocratic."
Muslims are supposed to give their highest allegiance to Islam,
not
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to
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their
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country and not even to their family. The scope is not as much
to
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convert
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the world into Islam but to dominate the world and to establish
the
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law of
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Sharia.
As a matter of fact when a Muslim army invaded a country, they
did
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not
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accept the conversion of the conquered right away. This would
have
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deprived
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them of the booty and to excise the Jizyah tax, which was the
main
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incentive
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of the Muslims to attack in the first place. The conquered
people
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were
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left
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to practice their religion for centuries providing the wealth
for
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the
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Islamic empire and finance the Islamic army to continue with
their
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conquests. As the following hadith shows the Muslims would
provide
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"protection" for the people of other religions, i.e. would not
kill
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them,
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under the condition that they pay the jizyah which as Umar said
was
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fixed
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by
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Allah as stipends for Muslims.
Allah
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has
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placed truth upon Umar's tongue and heart. He fixed stipends for
Muslims,
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and provided protection for the people of other religions by
levying
Post by Peter Terry
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jizyah
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(poll-tax) on them, deducting no fifth from it, nor taking it as
booty.
Post by alias
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
Therefore when Muslims say that Islam is a tolerant religion,
which
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allows
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the non-Muslims to keep their faith and practice their religion,
in
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a
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sens
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e
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they are telling the truth. However, that freedom has a catch
and
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that
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is
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to
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accept the status of dhimitude, become subservient to Muslims
and
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"pay
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the
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"
According to Muslim scholars, the verse 9:23 of the Quran that
instructs
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Post by DemSoc
the
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Muslims not to take the infidels as their awlia (protectors,
custodians,
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rulers) implies that Muslims should not accept the rule and the
governance
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of non-Muslims. Hence they are required to overthrow the
non-Islamic
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governments, whenever they are able to and wherever they
reside
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to
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establish
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Islamic governments. Until then that country is considered to be
Dar
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al
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Harb
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(House of war). When the governance of the country is turned
over
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to
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the
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Muslims, that country becomes Dar al Islam (House of Islam) and
Sharia
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becomes the law of the land. This does not mean that everyone
will
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be
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forced
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to convert to Islam. It means that everyone becomes subject to
Sharia
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and
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those who are not believers will be classified as dhimmis, will
have
Post by Peter Terry
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to
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pay
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Jizyah and support the Ummah financially.
Islam can be reformed only by outside military force and coercion.
Not
Post by Peter Terry
by
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persuasion, soft power
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or attempting to win the minds and hearts of Muslims.
Post by DemSoc
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JimB
http://www.geocities.com/UAM01
Union Against Multi-Culty
Peter Terry
2004-05-16 23:30:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by DemSoc
I am posting from vietnam....
LIAR
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Post by Peter Terry
Muttly!! how many time have I told you to use your spell checker!
Post by DemSoc
Typical racism fom Brown's toxis avenger.
Post by Peter Terry
Shuddddup Muttly you've become as boring as that other
redneck moron woopso fukto!
Post by DemSoc
Marxism is a dodo that give support to islam, as do fem-nazis like
Greer.
Post by Peter Terry
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Just like the dodo....
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No truth all. Powel knows more than you do obviously.
Islam is imperialism, but many religions went through it.
Just that the west had the reformation.
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Can Islam be reformed?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina31119.htm
By: Ali Sina
When the US Secretary of State Colin Powel said Islam is not
incompatible
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with democracy, the spokesman of the Islamic Republic of Iran
Hamid
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Reza
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Asefi mocked him and said "US officials' comments on Islam
clearly
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prove
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they do know nothing about Islam and Muslims.
If Asefi has said only one word of truth in his entire life,
this
Post by DemSoc
is
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it.
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Today the question that everyone asks is whether Islam can be
reformed
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and
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whether it can accommodate the democracy.
A friend of mine wrote: "Pentateuch is very similar to the
same
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intolerance, same draconian laws, etc. yet the great part of
the
Post by Peter Terry
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Jews
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finally rejected the literal interpretation of their holy
scriptures
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and
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proved they could evolve."
Also Christianity has allowed for change, The Church of the
16th
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century
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was
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as repressive as the Talibans and the Wahhabis. Yet
Reformation
Post by Peter Terry
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took
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place,
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nonetheless. And even the Catholic Church is finally opening
up.
Post by Peter Terry
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Can't then we extrapolate that the same could happen to Islam?
The idea that since Christianity and Judaism reformed then
Islam
Post by Peter Terry
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can
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also
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be
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reformed is untenable. Islam is not comparable to
Christianity,
Post by Peter Terry
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Judaism or
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any other religion.
Christianity is essentially a religion of the heart. It were
statements
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such
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as "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" and "My kingdom is
not
Post by DemSoc
of
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this
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
world" that allowed the Christians to keep their faith while
permitting
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secular governments to evolve independent of the Church. A
Christian
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does
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not feel any contradiction or dichotomy by living with secular
laws
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and
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practicing his religious beliefs. One can be a Christian in
his
Post by Peter Terry
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heart
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and
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secular in politics. Therefore reform in Christianity did not
mean
Post by DemSoc
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renouncing faith.
There are very few Jews who believe that the Pentateuch is
actually
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the
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word
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of God. In all the five books attributed to Moses, he is
referred
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to
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in
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third person. Then the Deuteronomy ends by giving an obituary
about
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Moses
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and how his tomb has been lost. This allows the Jews to be
open
Post by Peter Terry
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about
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the
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interpretation of the Bible as it is clear, at least to the
thinking
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majority of them, that the Bible is not the textual word of
God
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but
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written
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by humans, who were allegedly inspired, yet fallible
nonetheless.
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
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Also living in Diaspora for 2000 years with no temporal
authority
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has
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forced
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the Jews to learn how to adapt their Jewish laws (Halakhah) to
the
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
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exigencies of the non-Jewish world, which allows them now to
create
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a
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secular state in a country built through religious
imperatives.
Post by Peter Terry
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Post by Peter Terry
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However, reforming Islam is not something that a Muslim would
consider.
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
Those who ask such question are always the non-Muslims. For a
Muslim
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this
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question is pointless. The thought of reform would not even
pass
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the
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mind
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of
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a Muslim. He would tell you that the problem with Islamic
world
Post by Peter Terry
is
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Post by Peter Terry
in
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the
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
inadequate interpretation of the Sharia and not in the Sharia
itself.
Post by DemSoc
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Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Quran is considered to be the verbatim words of God. The verse
"This
Post by Peter Terry
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day I
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon
you,
Post by DemSoc
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and
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have
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chosen for you Islam as your religion" 5:3 reverberates in the
ears
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of
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every
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Muslim. It leaves no room for interpretations and
reformations.
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
How
Post by Peter Terry
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can
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anyone improve or change something that is perfect?
History shows that all attempts to reform Islam have failed.
The
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Sufis
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tried
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to interpret the Quran esoterically and mystically. The
Mu'tazelis
Post by DemSoc
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went as
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far as to suggest that if there is a contradiction between the
revelation
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
and reason the latter should prevail. Some modern day
Islamists
Post by Peter Terry
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such
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as
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Ali
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Shariati and Sorush have tried to use Islam as a political
tool
Post by Peter Terry
to
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Post by Peter Terry
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bring
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Islamic world out of the dark ages and into the modern world.
However
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all
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
these attempts have failed and Islam is now in it darkest
phase
Post by Peter Terry
of
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its
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existence. As a matter of fact every time Islam is taken into
equation,
Post by alias
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even
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nominally, for a social change the result is catastrophic
because
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
the
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Post by DemSoc
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gravitational pull of the Quran towards fundamentalism quashes
every
Post by Peter Terry
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other
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Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
consideration. Quran cannot be interpreted and reformed. The
will
Post by DemSoc
of
Post by Peter Terry
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God
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
cannot be surpassed by the will of people because of
convenience
Post by Peter Terry
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and
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expediency. Any minor deviation from the Quran is considered
to
Post by Peter Terry
be
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a
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direct
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challenge to its authority and it invalidates the entire
faith.
Post by Peter Terry
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Post by Peter Terry
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Islam is considered to be a "complete way of life"
This concept is eloquently explained in the Islamic site
Islamonline.net
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
"Islam is not a religion in the common, distorted meaning of
the
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
word,
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Post by A***@somewhere.com
confining its scope only to the private life of man. By saying
that
Post by Peter Terry
it
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is
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Post by DemSoc
a
Post by A***@somewhere.com
complete way of life, we mean that it caters for all the
fields
Post by Peter Terry
of
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
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human
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
existence. In fact, Islam provides guidance for all walks of
life -
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
individual and social, material and moral, economic and
political,
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
legal
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Post by DemSoc
and
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cultural, national and international.
The Qur'an enjoins Man to enter the fold of Islam without any
reservation
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and to follow God's guidance in all fields of life."
In Islam politics and faith are intertwined. The separation of
the
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
two
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
would
Post by A***@somewhere.com
mean the end of faith. In criticism of Christianity the above
site
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
continues: .
"Religion asks us to separate things of God from those of
Caesar.
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Such
Post by DemSoc
a
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
judicial separation between the two means the degrading of
both
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
the
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
secular
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and the sacred. That religion is worth little, if the
conscience
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
of
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
its
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
followers is not disturbed when war clouds are hanging over us
all
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
and
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
industrial conflicts are threatening social peace. Religion
has
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
weakened
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Man
Post by A***@somewhere.com
's social conscience and moral sensitivity, by separating the
things
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
of
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
God
Post by A***@somewhere.com
from those of Caesar."
As for Islam, it totally denounces this concept of religion
and
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
clearly
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
states that its objectives are purification of the soul and
the
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
reform
Post by DemSoc
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
reconstruction of the society. "
We verily sent Our messengers with clear proofs and revealed
with
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
them
Post by DemSoc
the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
scripture and the balance [i.e. the authority to establish
justice],
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
that
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
mankind may observe justice and the right measure.
The command is for none but Allah; He has commanded that you
obey
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
none
Post by DemSoc
but
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Him; that is the right path.
[Muslims are] those who if We give them power in the land,
establish
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
[the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
system of] salat (prayers and worship) and zakat (poor due)
and
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
enjoin
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
virtue and forbid vice and evil."
"Thus, even a cursory study of the teachings of Islam shows
that
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
it
Post by Peter Terry
is
Post by DemSoc
an
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
all-embracing way of life and does not leave out any field of
human
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
existence to become a playground for satanic forces."
That is true. A Muslim is supposed to get religious
instructions
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
about
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
everything. Even with which foot he ought to enter the toilet,
which
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
direction to face, which foot to put his weight on during
defecation
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
how
Post by A***@somewhere.com
many rocks to use for cleaning purposes are topics that the
foqaha,
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
"the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
doctors of the law" study for years to master and then guide
the
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
ummah
Post by DemSoc
who
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
in turn would not lift a finger without consulting such
doctors.
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Addressing the problem of Sharia for a Muslim is considered
heresy.
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
The
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
so-called moderate Muslims do not propose to scrap or change
the
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Sharia.
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
So,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
what a moderate Muslim would say about the law of stoning? He
would
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
deny
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
that this is an Islamic law and he would challenge you to find
such
Post by Peter Terry
a
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
thing
Post by A***@somewhere.com
in the Quran. He is right! Stoning does not exist in the
Quran.
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
But
Post by Peter Terry
it
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
exists in the Sunnah and the Sunnah (Muhammad's own
examples)
Post by DemSoc
is
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
the
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
major
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
source of the Sharia law.
In Islam if there is no specific reference to a law, the
Judaic
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
law
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
should
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
apply. Stoning the adulterers is a law prescribed in
Deuteronomy
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
22:23,
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
and
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the prophet practiced stoning of adulterers as per various
hadiths.
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
(1,
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
2,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
3)
As the Imam of IslamOnline.net rightly states, Islam is not a
religion
Post by DemSoc
at
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
all. Islam is politics. Islam's only objective is to reclaim
the
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Earth
Post by DemSoc
for
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Allah and establish the rule of Sharia. You take away that
objective
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Islam as a whole becomes meaningless. It simply loses its
raison
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
d'être.
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
While Christ wanted to conquer the hearts of the people,
Muhammad
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
could
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
care
Post by A***@somewhere.com
less about people's hearts. He was interested in conquering
cities
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
and
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
establishing the dominion of Islam in the name of God.
The very word Islam means submission. The first duty of a
Muslim
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
is
Post by Peter Terry
to
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
strive (make Jihad) and render the world submissive to Allah
and
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
his
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
messenger.
Ironically, the word peace in Islam, also derive from the same
root
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
SLM,
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
does not mean mutual and harmonious coexistence of two equal
and
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
sovereign
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
people. It means suppressing the non-Muslims and making them
submissive to
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the rule and dominance of Islam. Islam does not recognize the
legitimacy
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
of
Post by A***@somewhere.com
any non-Islamic government especially over the Muslims.
"Yea, to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the
earth;
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
24.42
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
and,
Post by A***@somewhere.com
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to
Allah),
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
never
Post by A***@somewhere.com
will it be accepted of him" 3:85. Muslims are pressed to
"fight
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
them
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
[the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
infidels] on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and
there
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
prevail
Post by A***@somewhere.com
justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere" 8:39,.
It must be noted that tumult and oppression means resisting
the
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
advance of
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Islam. Justice and peace can only prevail when Islam becomes
dominant
Post by DemSoc
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
other religions are subdued and their followers are reduced to
tributaries
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
to the coffers of the Islamic state. They must "pay the Jizya
with
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
willing
Post by A***@somewhere.com
submission, and feel themselves subdued".9:29.
I strongly disagree with those who compare Islam of today with
the
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Christianity of the Middle Ages and claim that since
Christianity
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
eventually
Post by A***@somewhere.com
was reformed, Islam can also reform.
The proponents of reform have a very weak position to defend.
Daniel
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Pipes
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
is one such scholar who believes, at least ostensibly, that
Islam
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
can
Post by DemSoc
be
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
reformed. The weakness of his position is picked up by his
opponents
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
who
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
rightly say, "Dr. Pipes seems to contradict himself. First he
says
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
that
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
there is nothing in Islam that contradicts democracy and then
insists
Post by DemSoc
that
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Sharia is antidemocratic."
Muslims are supposed to give their highest allegiance to
Islam,
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
not
Post by Peter Terry
to
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
their
Post by A***@somewhere.com
country and not even to their family. The scope is not as much
to
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
convert
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the world into Islam but to dominate the world and to
establish
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
the
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
law of
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Sharia.
As a matter of fact when a Muslim army invaded a country, they
did
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
not
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
accept the conversion of the conquered right away. This would
have
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
deprived
Post by A***@somewhere.com
them of the booty and to excise the Jizyah tax, which was the
main
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
incentive
Post by A***@somewhere.com
of the Muslims to attack in the first place. The conquered
people
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
were
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
left
Post by A***@somewhere.com
to practice their religion for centuries providing the wealth
for
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
the
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Islamic empire and finance the Islamic army to continue with
their
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
conquests. As the following hadith shows the Muslims would
provide
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
"protection" for the people of other religions, i.e. would not
kill
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
them,
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
under the condition that they pay the jizyah which as Umar
said
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
was
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
fixed
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
by
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Allah as stipends for Muslims.
Allah
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
has
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
placed truth upon Umar's tongue and heart. He fixed stipends
for
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Muslims,
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
and provided protection for the people of other religions by
levying
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
jizyah
Post by A***@somewhere.com
(poll-tax) on them, deducting no fifth from it, nor taking
it
Post by DemSoc
as
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
booty.
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Therefore when Muslims say that Islam is a tolerant religion,
which
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
allows
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
the non-Muslims to keep their faith and practice their
religion,
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
in
Post by Peter Terry
a
Post by DemSoc
sens
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
e
Post by A***@somewhere.com
they are telling the truth. However, that freedom has a catch
and
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
that
Post by DemSoc
is
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
to
Post by A***@somewhere.com
accept the status of dhimitude, become subservient to Muslims
and
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
"pay
Post by DemSoc
the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"
According to Muslim scholars, the verse 9:23 of the Quran that
instructs
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
the
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Muslims not to take the infidels as their awlia (protectors,
custodians,
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
rulers) implies that Muslims should not accept the rule and
the
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
governance
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
of non-Muslims. Hence they are required to overthrow the
non-Islamic
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
governments, whenever they are able to and wherever they
reside
Post by Peter Terry
to
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
establish
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Islamic governments. Until then that country is considered
to
Post by DemSoc
be
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Dar
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
al
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Harb
Post by A***@somewhere.com
(House of war). When the governance of the country is turned
over
Post by DemSoc
to
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
the
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Muslims, that country becomes Dar al Islam (House of Islam)
and
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Sharia
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
becomes the law of the land. This does not mean that everyone
will
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
be
Post by DemSoc
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
forced
Post by A***@somewhere.com
to convert to Islam. It means that everyone becomes subject to
Sharia
Post by DemSoc
and
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
those who are not believers will be classified as dhimmis,
will
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
have
Post by Peter Terry
Post by DemSoc
to
Post by alias
Post by DemSoc
pay
Post by A***@somewhere.com
Jizyah and support the Ummah financially.
Islam can be reformed only by outside military force and coercion.
Not
Post by Peter Terry
by
Post by DemSoc
persuasion, soft power
Post by alias
or attempting to win the minds and hearts of Muslims.
Post by DemSoc
Post by A***@somewhere.com
JimB
http://www.geocities.com/UAM01
Union Against Multi-Culty
Peter Terry
2004-05-04 02:23:02 UTC
Permalink
"DemSoc" <***@MarxIsEvil.com> wrote in message news:c75pfg$1ftn$***@news.f.de.plusline.net...
What a dork whose interlectual ability can only be measured to that of an
ant.

Why don't you go back to your regular Nazi NG!

Neo Nazi NG thataway, scumbag!---------------->
Ipso Facto
2004-05-04 02:49:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Terry
What a dork whose interlectual ability can only be measured to that of an
ant.
Terry >> Oh yeah yous people out there with the interlectual ability
like that is dorks.

Made me laugh anyone you dickhead.
Post by Peter Terry
Why don't you go back to your regular Nazi NG!
Neo Nazi NG thataway, scumbag!---------------->
And you also managed to stifle your "KKK" wail while you were being
spanked and only let out a couple of little "Nazi" bleats. Well done !
Peter Terry
2004-05-04 05:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ipso Facto
Post by Peter Terry
What a dork whose interlectual ability can only be measured to that of an
ant.
Terry >> Oh yeah yous people out there with the interlectual ability
like that is dorks.
Made me laugh anyone you dickhead.
Post by Peter Terry
Why don't you go back to your regular Nazi NG!
Neo Nazi NG thataway, scumbag!---------------->
And you also managed to stifle your "KKK" wail while you were being
spanked and only let out a couple of little "Nazi" bleats. Well done !
First point, please repeat most of this in English given I don't subscribe
to One Nation (KKK) slang.

Second point: While you might deny that One Nation isn't a race base
pressure group the vast majority of commentators in this country including
mois say that it is!

PeterT
Ipso Facto
2004-05-04 05:27:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Terry
Post by Ipso Facto
Post by Peter Terry
What a dork whose interlectual ability can only be measured to that of an
ant.
Terry >> Oh yeah yous people out there with the interlectual ability
like that is dorks.
Made me laugh anyone you dickhead.
Post by Peter Terry
Why don't you go back to your regular Nazi NG!
Neo Nazi NG thataway, scumbag!---------------->
And you also managed to stifle your "KKK" wail while you were being
spanked and only let out a couple of little "Nazi" bleats. Well done !
First point, please repeat most of this in English given I don't subscribe
to One Nation (KKK) slang.
Ahhh look he couldn't keep it in, got spanked too hard and the "KKK"
just had to come out.
Post by Peter Terry
Second point: While you might deny that One Nation isn't a race base
pressure group the vast majority of commentators in this country including
mois
Oh yeah "Insane" Terry you are right up there with the commentators in
this country. What a fucking jerk.
Peter Terry
2004-05-05 22:45:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ipso Facto
Post by Peter Terry
Post by Ipso Facto
Post by Peter Terry
What a dork whose interlectual ability can only be measured to that of an
ant.
Terry >> Oh yeah yous people out there with the interlectual ability
like that is dorks.
Made me laugh anyone you dickhead.
Post by Peter Terry
Why don't you go back to your regular Nazi NG!
Neo Nazi NG thataway, scumbag!---------------->
And you also managed to stifle your "KKK" wail while you were being
spanked and only let out a couple of little "Nazi" bleats. Well done !
First point, please repeat most of this in English given I don't subscribe
to One Nation (KKK) slang.
Ahhh look he couldn't keep it in, got spanked too hard and the "KKK"
just had to come out.
Post by Peter Terry
Second point: While you might deny that One Nation isn't a race base
pressure group the vast majority of commentators in this country including
mois
Oh yeah "Insane" Terry you are right up there with the commentators in
this country. What a fucking jerk.
Coward!
DemSoc
2004-05-09 14:24:29 UTC
Permalink
You are a nut that tries to smear anyone who is not a raving marxist lunatic
spurting tox Brown-shirts lies a nazi. Yet that is what the Nazis do, call
everyone else racist and "nazi".

It is you the jew hating brownshit lackey who is the nazi.
Post by Peter Terry
Post by Ipso Facto
Post by Peter Terry
Post by Ipso Facto
Post by Peter Terry
What a dork whose interlectual ability can only be measured to that
of
Post by Peter Terry
an
Post by Ipso Facto
Post by Peter Terry
Post by Ipso Facto
Post by Peter Terry
ant.
Terry >> Oh yeah yous people out there with the interlectual ability
like that is dorks.
Made me laugh anyone you dickhead.
Post by Peter Terry
Why don't you go back to your regular Nazi NG!
Neo Nazi NG thataway, scumbag!---------------->
And you also managed to stifle your "KKK" wail while you were being
spanked and only let out a couple of little "Nazi" bleats. Well done !
First point, please repeat most of this in English given I don't
subscribe
Post by Ipso Facto
Post by Peter Terry
to One Nation (KKK) slang.
Ahhh look he couldn't keep it in, got spanked too hard and the "KKK"
just had to come out.
Post by Peter Terry
Second point: While you might deny that One Nation isn't a race base
pressure group the vast majority of commentators in this country
including
Post by Ipso Facto
Post by Peter Terry
mois
Oh yeah "Insane" Terry you are right up there with the commentators in
this country. What a fucking jerk.
Coward!
Peter Terry
2004-05-10 09:45:57 UTC
Permalink
Shuddup Mosely...you are a Nutzi dumbsuk!
Post by DemSoc
You are a nut that tries to smear anyone who is not a raving marxist lunatic
spurting tox Brown-shirts lies a nazi. Yet that is what the Nazis do, call
everyone else racist and "nazi".
It is you the jew hating brownshit lackey who is the nazi.
Post by Peter Terry
Post by Ipso Facto
Post by Peter Terry
On Tue, 4 May 2004 12:23:02 +1000, "Peter Terry"
Post by Peter Terry
What a dork whose interlectual ability can only be measured to that
of
Post by Peter Terry
an
Post by Ipso Facto
Post by Peter Terry
Post by Peter Terry
ant.
Terry >> Oh yeah yous people out there with the interlectual ability
like that is dorks.
Made me laugh anyone you dickhead.
Post by Peter Terry
Why don't you go back to your regular Nazi NG!
Neo Nazi NG thataway, scumbag!---------------->
And you also managed to stifle your "KKK" wail while you were being
spanked and only let out a couple of little "Nazi" bleats. Well
done
Post by DemSoc
!
Post by Peter Terry
Post by Ipso Facto
Post by Peter Terry
First point, please repeat most of this in English given I don't
subscribe
Post by Ipso Facto
Post by Peter Terry
to One Nation (KKK) slang.
Ahhh look he couldn't keep it in, got spanked too hard and the "KKK"
just had to come out.
Post by Peter Terry
Second point: While you might deny that One Nation isn't a race base
pressure group the vast majority of commentators in this country
including
Post by Ipso Facto
Post by Peter Terry
mois
Oh yeah "Insane" Terry you are right up there with the commentators in
this country. What a fucking jerk.
Coward!
DemSoc
2004-05-11 14:27:45 UTC
Permalink
Such is the pathetic lies of islam that you support so much. You hate jews
and white people. You are the nazi racist trash.
Post by Peter Terry
Shuddup Mosely...you are a Nutzi dumbsuk!
Post by DemSoc
You are a nut that tries to smear anyone who is not a raving marxist
lunatic
Post by DemSoc
spurting tox Brown-shirts lies a nazi. Yet that is what the Nazis do, call
everyone else racist and "nazi".
It is you the jew hating brownshit lackey who is the nazi.
Post by Peter Terry
On Tue, 4 May 2004 15:17:19 +1000, "Peter Terry"
Post by Peter Terry
On Tue, 4 May 2004 12:23:02 +1000, "Peter Terry"
Post by Peter Terry
What a dork whose interlectual ability can only be measured to
that
Post by DemSoc
of
Post by Peter Terry
an
Post by Peter Terry
Post by Peter Terry
ant.
Terry >> Oh yeah yous people out there with the interlectual
ability
Post by DemSoc
Post by Peter Terry
Post by Peter Terry
like that is dorks.
Made me laugh anyone you dickhead.
Post by Peter Terry
Why don't you go back to your regular Nazi NG!
Neo Nazi NG thataway, scumbag!---------------->
And you also managed to stifle your "KKK" wail while you were being
spanked and only let out a couple of little "Nazi" bleats. Well
done
Post by DemSoc
!
Post by Peter Terry
Post by Peter Terry
First point, please repeat most of this in English given I don't
subscribe
Post by Peter Terry
to One Nation (KKK) slang.
Ahhh look he couldn't keep it in, got spanked too hard and the "KKK"
just had to come out.
Post by Peter Terry
Second point: While you might deny that One Nation isn't a race base
pressure group the vast majority of commentators in this country
including
Post by Peter Terry
mois
Oh yeah "Insane" Terry you are right up there with the commentators in
this country. What a fucking jerk.
Coward!
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