Discussion:
How is this NOT a war against Islam now?????
(too old to reply)
Bill Nark
2004-04-08 01:15:10 UTC
Permalink
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics (ie,
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the targets
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that matter
justify this war.

And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in those WTC
planes, NOT Iraqi's.

Bill Nark
The Insensitive Troll
tssk
2004-04-08 06:04:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics (ie,
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the targets
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that matter
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in those WTC
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
Bill Nark
The Insensitive Troll
Because, we are the good guys.

Apparently.

Imagine the backlash had it been the other way around though.
SKD
2004-04-08 12:32:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by tssk
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics (ie,
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the targets
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that matter
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in those WTC
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
Bill Nark
The Insensitive Troll
Because, we are the good guys.
Apparently.
Imagine the backlash had it been the other way around though.
Doubt the people here, who get a very sanitised view of the reality,
have a clue to the level of hatred bush and co have generated in a
very short spate of time.
Bill Evans
2004-04-09 12:26:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by SKD
Post by tssk
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics (ie,
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the targets
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that matter
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in those WTC
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
Bill Nark
The Insensitive Troll
Because, we are the good guys.
Apparently.
Imagine the backlash had it been the other way around though.
Doubt the people here, who get a very sanitised view of the reality,
have a clue to the level of hatred bush and co have generated in a
very short spate of time.
I can't believe how many people here think that a small goup of hotheads
represent the majority of Iraqis.

The tactics being employed in Iraq are sound. Pullback, surround and isolate
those causing the disturbance, let them wreak havok, then move in quickly
and in force and remove them, once more liberating all the innocents being
held hostage.
raven
2004-04-08 07:52:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics (ie,
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the targets
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that matter
justify this war.
Are you asking for justification for originally going in or for
justification for staying in
as an occupying power and how to deal with the situation on the ground from
hereon in..
They are two very different arguments.

On the issue: is this a war on Islam?. No. Islamic clerics don't only preach
religion but are political activist that
are taking the opportunity to fill the political vacuum. A cleric should be
treated no differently to any other Iraqi
if he incites and coordinates violence.

raven
Straight Talker
2004-04-08 09:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics (ie,
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the targets
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that matter
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in those WTC
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full democracy right
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire mid east!
Post by Bill Nark
Bill Nark
The Insensitive Troll
Ian McFadyen
2004-04-08 11:01:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics (ie,
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the targets
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that matter
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in those WTC
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full democracy right
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire mid east!
A secular democracy in Iraq (if that can be achieved) will encourage more
Saudis to defy their theocratic establishment and demand liberal reforms.
SKD
2004-04-08 16:16:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics (ie,
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the targets
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that matter
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in those WTC
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full democracy right
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire mid east!
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the teeth, you idiot.
Straight Talker
2004-04-09 04:58:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics (ie,
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the targets
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that matter
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in those WTC
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full democracy right
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire mid east!
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the teeth, you idiot.
Only if the small minority currently fighting get their way. Hence the main
reason why the US is fighting back!
SKD
2004-04-09 09:55:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics (ie,
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the targets
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that matter
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in those WTC
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full democracy right
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire mid east!
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the teeth, you
idiot.
Only if the small minority currently fighting get their way. Hence the main
reason why the US is fighting back!
You believe their shit, idiot?
Bill Evans
2004-04-09 12:49:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics (ie,
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the targets
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that matter
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in those WTC
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full democracy right
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire mid east!
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the teeth, you
idiot.
Only if the small minority currently fighting get their way. Hence the main
reason why the US is fighting back!
You believe their shit, idiot?
Provide some hard evidence that it is otherwise. The media beat-up on these
insurgents is exactly the same as the Tet offensive in Vietnam, where a
decisive military victory by the US was portrayed to the world by the press
as being a crushing defeat.

The primary reason for dissatisfaction among the Iraqi people is the lack of
work and the way too slow pace of reconstruction. The US Congress need to
pull their digits out their collective shit shutes and get on with
allocating the contracts. Lack of work and no income is bound to create
dissention, especially when it is as high as it is in "Sadr City" where it
is higher than 60%.

The bulk of Iraqi people are just like us Westerners. The most active nerve
in their bodies is the hip pocket nerve.
Le Mod Pol
2004-04-09 17:15:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics
(ie,
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the
targets
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that
matter
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in
those WTC
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full
democracy right
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire mid
east!
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the teeth, you
idiot.
Only if the small minority currently fighting get their way. Hence
the mainreason why the US is fighting back!
You believe their shit, idiot?
Provide some hard evidence that it is otherwise. The media beat-up on these
insurgents is exactly the same as the Tet offensive in Vietnam, where a
decisive military victory by the US was portrayed to the world by the press
as being a crushing defeat.
You could not be more wrong. Iran has been pouring
men, arms, ammunition and agitators for more than a
year. Do you not wonder that their leader is an "Ayatollah"?
--
LP
In politics, moderation is the best policy.
Bill Evans
2004-04-10 13:36:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics
(ie,
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the
targets
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that
matter
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in
those WTC
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full
democracy right
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire mid
east!
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the teeth, you
idiot.
Only if the small minority currently fighting get their way. Hence
the mainreason why the US is fighting back!
You believe their shit, idiot?
Provide some hard evidence that it is otherwise. The media beat-up on these
insurgents is exactly the same as the Tet offensive in Vietnam, where a
decisive military victory by the US was portrayed to the world by the press
as being a crushing defeat.
You could not be more wrong. Iran has been pouring
men, arms, ammunition and agitators for more than a
year. Do you not wonder that their leader is an "Ayatollah"?
--
No, he's not. Al Sadr is just an iman (sp?). In other words he ranks no
higher than a parish priest. An Ayatollah is the equivalent of an
archbishop. He is, however an Iranian.
Straight Talker
2004-04-09 13:15:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics (ie,
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the targets
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that matter
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in those WTC
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full democracy right
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire mid east!
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the teeth, you
idiot.
Only if the small minority currently fighting get their way. Hence the main
reason why the US is fighting back!
You believe their shit, idiot?
No, I don't believe the shit comming out of the mouths of extremists and
terrorists. Question is why do you?
SKD
2004-04-10 07:09:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics
(ie,
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the
targets
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that
matter
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in those
WTC
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full democracy
right
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire mid
east!
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the teeth, you
idiot.
Only if the small minority currently fighting get their way. Hence the
main
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
reason why the US is fighting back!
You believe their shit, idiot?
No, I don't believe the shit comming out of the mouths of extremists and
terrorists. Question is why do you?
Don't know, what are these extremists and terrorist saying? Was
referring to the shit fed last year for launching this war - "weapons
of mass destruction". You believed the fairly tale then, didn't you.
Idiot.
Straight Talker
2004-04-10 07:49:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics
(ie,
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the
targets
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that
matter
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in those
WTC
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full democracy
right
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire mid
east!
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the teeth, you
idiot.
Only if the small minority currently fighting get their way. Hence the
main
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
reason why the US is fighting back!
You believe their shit, idiot?
No, I don't believe the shit comming out of the mouths of extremists and
terrorists. Question is why do you?
Don't know, what are these extremists and terrorist saying? Was
referring to the shit fed last year for launching this war - "weapons
of mass destruction". You believed the fairly tale then, didn't you.
Idiot.
I believe that what the US and its allies did was a next logical step for
the war against terror. After all, where would we be without that action?
Saddam would still be in power with US troops and battle groups in the Gulf
region with no end in sight.

Now, while everyone is focused on Iraq, what else are the US doing to combat
terrorism? We don't exactly know however we have seen some large busts in
recent weeks. Where did the intel for this come from one wonders.
SKD
2004-04-11 05:32:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical"
clerics
(ie,
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the
targets
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that
matter
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in
those
WTC
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full
democracy
right
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire mid
east!
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the teeth,
you
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
idiot.
Only if the small minority currently fighting get their way. Hence
the
main
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
reason why the US is fighting back!
You believe their shit, idiot?
No, I don't believe the shit comming out of the mouths of extremists and
terrorists. Question is why do you?
Don't know, what are these extremists and terrorist saying? Was
referring to the shit fed last year for launching this war - "weapons
of mass destruction". You believed the fairly tale then, didn't you.
Idiot.
I believe that what the US and its allies did was a next logical step for
the war against terror. After all, where would we be without that action?
Riveted; explain these logical step one by one, will ya.
Post by Bill Nark
Saddam would still be in power with US troops and battle groups in the Gulf
region with no end in sight.
What battle groups, fighting whom, and to what end? Let's see you lay
these in the open.
Post by Bill Nark
Now, while everyone is focused on Iraq, what else are the US doing to combat
terrorism? We don't exactly know however we have seen some large busts in
recent weeks. Where did the intel for this come from one wonders.
The Saddam, I take?
Straight Talker
2004-04-11 06:21:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical"
clerics
(ie,
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the
targets
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that
matter
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in
those
WTC
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full
democracy
right
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire mid
east!
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the teeth,
you
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
idiot.
Only if the small minority currently fighting get their way.
Hence
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
the
main
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
reason why the US is fighting back!
You believe their shit, idiot?
No, I don't believe the shit comming out of the mouths of extremists and
terrorists. Question is why do you?
Don't know, what are these extremists and terrorist saying? Was
referring to the shit fed last year for launching this war - "weapons
of mass destruction". You believed the fairly tale then, didn't you.
Idiot.
I believe that what the US and its allies did was a next logical step for
the war against terror. After all, where would we be without that action?
Riveted; explain these logical step one by one, will ya.
Simple. Freeing Iraq of Saddam will eventually free up US forces to fight
else where.
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Saddam would still be in power with US troops and battle groups in the Gulf
region with no end in sight.
What battle groups, fighting whom, and to what end? Let's see you lay
these in the open.
There would be one US battlegroup in the Gulf minimum plus ships of other
nations assisting in keeping the embargo on Iraq.

There was also thousands of troops and equipment for many more tied up in
stores in Kuwait since the 1991 Gulf war.
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Now, while everyone is focused on Iraq, what else are the US doing to combat
terrorism? We don't exactly know however we have seen some large busts in
recent weeks. Where did the intel for this come from one wonders.
The Saddam, I take?
What would he know about current terrorist avtivity in London?
Bill Evans
2004-04-11 08:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical"
clerics
(ie,
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid)
being
Post by SKD
the
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
targets
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for
that
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
matter
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was
Saudi's
Post by SKD
in
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
those
WTC
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full
democracy
right
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the
entire
Post by SKD
mid
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
east!
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the
teeth,
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
you
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
idiot.
Only if the small minority currently fighting get their way.
Hence
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
the
main
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
reason why the US is fighting back!
You believe their shit, idiot?
No, I don't believe the shit comming out of the mouths of
extremists
Post by SKD
and
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
terrorists. Question is why do you?
Don't know, what are these extremists and terrorist saying? Was
referring to the shit fed last year for launching this war - "weapons
of mass destruction". You believed the fairly tale then, didn't you.
Idiot.
I believe that what the US and its allies did was a next logical step
for
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
the war against terror. After all, where would we be without that
action?
Post by SKD
Riveted; explain these logical step one by one, will ya.
Simple. Freeing Iraq of Saddam will eventually free up US forces to fight
else where.
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Saddam would still be in power with US troops and battle groups in the
Gulf
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
region with no end in sight.
What battle groups, fighting whom, and to what end? Let's see you lay
these in the open.
There would be one US battlegroup in the Gulf minimum plus ships of other
nations assisting in keeping the embargo on Iraq.
There was also thousands of troops and equipment for many more tied up in
stores in Kuwait since the 1991 Gulf war.
3 of our naval vessels were permanently tied up there. They are now back in
Australian waters. The US carrier group is still there to support the ground
forces if needed.

The US was coming under heavy pressure from the Saudis to remove all of the
100,000 odd troops they had stationed in Saudi and end the sanctions on
Iraq. To comply they could only do one of 2 things. They could either
withdraw from the middle east (without the Saudi bases, they wouldn't have
been able to adequately support the troops in Afghanistan either) leaving
Saddam and bin loaded laughing openly at them, or they could remove Saddam
and move their bases to Iraq. They chose the latter, and so would I and any
other thinking person.
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Now, while everyone is focused on Iraq, what else are the US doing to
combat
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
terrorism? We don't exactly know however we have seen some large
busts
Post by SKD
in
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
recent weeks. Where did the intel for this come from one wonders.
The Saddam, I take?
What would he know about current terrorist avtivity in London?
Le Mod Pol
2004-04-11 12:49:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Evans
The US was coming under heavy pressure from the Saudis to remove all of the
100,000 odd troops they had stationed in Saudi and end the sanctions on
Iraq. To comply they could only do one of 2 things. They could either
withdraw from the middle east (without the Saudi bases, they wouldn't have
been able to adequately support the troops in Afghanistan either) leaving
Saddam and bin loaded laughing openly at them, or they could remove Saddam
and move their bases to Iraq. They chose the latter, and so would I and any
other thinking person.
Your analysis of the short term situation is quite good
as far as it went.

However everyone refuses to recognize that this is
"not a war against Islam"
but_IS_war_BY_Islam_against_the_whole_world.
A war that has continued sporadically for 1,382 years.
The strategy, tactics, weapons, venues, and short term
objectives, have changed from time to time, but "Jihad"
never changes and never ends.

The first Caliphate (Khalifa) 632-664 conquered Syria,
all of N Africa and a hunk of Europe. All Islam is
looking to a return to that success. The Ayatollahs of
Iran are seeking to place one of their own, on the
Caliph's throne.
--
LP
In politics, moderation is the best policy.
Bill Evans
2004-04-12 02:13:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Le Mod Pol
Post by Bill Evans
The US was coming under heavy pressure from the Saudis to remove all of the
100,000 odd troops they had stationed in Saudi and end the sanctions on
Iraq. To comply they could only do one of 2 things. They could either
withdraw from the middle east (without the Saudi bases, they wouldn't have
been able to adequately support the troops in Afghanistan either) leaving
Saddam and bin loaded laughing openly at them, or they could remove Saddam
and move their bases to Iraq. They chose the latter, and so would I and any
other thinking person.
Your analysis of the short term situation is quite good
as far as it went.
However everyone refuses to recognize that this is
"not a war against Islam"
but_IS_war_BY_Islam_against_the_whole_world.
A war that has continued sporadically for 1,382 years.
The strategy, tactics, weapons, venues, and short term
objectives, have changed from time to time, but "Jihad"
never changes and never ends.
The first Caliphate (Khalifa) 632-664 conquered Syria,
all of N Africa and a hunk of Europe. All Islam is
looking to a return to that success. The Ayatollahs of
Iran are seeking to place one of their own, on the
Caliph's throne.
--
And a few of the Mullahs and Ayatollahs will continue to seek that outcome,
but if the people feel reasonably happy with their lot, the grass roots
support won't be there. Just as in the US, Australia, Europe and the rest of
the developed countries of the world, religious extremists are simply patted
on their pointed heads and smiled at condecendingly, so, if we elevate
Muslims to the same degree, will they.
SKD
2004-04-11 12:03:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical"
clerics
(ie,
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being
the
targets
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for
that
matter
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's
in
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
those
WTC
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full
democracy
right
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire
mid
east!
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the
teeth,
you
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
idiot.
Only if the small minority currently fighting get their way.
Hence
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
the
main
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
reason why the US is fighting back!
You believe their shit, idiot?
No, I don't believe the shit comming out of the mouths of extremists
and
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
terrorists. Question is why do you?
Don't know, what are these extremists and terrorist saying? Was
referring to the shit fed last year for launching this war - "weapons
of mass destruction". You believed the fairly tale then, didn't you.
Idiot.
I believe that what the US and its allies did was a next logical step
for
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
the war against terror. After all, where would we be without that
action?
Post by SKD
Riveted; explain these logical step one by one, will ya.
Simple. Freeing Iraq of Saddam will eventually free up US forces to fight
else where.
Why were US forced tied up? They had no purpose to being there, read
below.
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Saddam would still be in power with US troops and battle groups in the
Gulf
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
region with no end in sight.
What battle groups, fighting whom, and to what end? Let's see you lay
these in the open.
There would be one US battlegroup in the Gulf minimum plus ships of other
nations assisting in keeping the embargo on Iraq.
The embargo was no longer warrented as Scot Ritter, Andrew Wilke and
others had been trying to tell going blue in the faces - find another
egg to suck on.
Post by Bill Nark
There was also thousands of troops and equipment for many more tied up in
stores in Kuwait since the 1991 Gulf war.
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Now, while everyone is focused on Iraq, what else are the US doing to
combat
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
terrorism? We don't exactly know however we have seen some large busts
in
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
recent weeks. Where did the intel for this come from one wonders.
The Saddam, I take?
What would he know about current terrorist avtivity in London?
You are the one implying that the removal of Saddam has something to
do with the intel!!! Wot a bloody waste of time!
Straight Talker
2004-04-11 22:33:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical"
clerics
(ie,
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being
the
targets
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for
that
matter
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's
in
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
those
WTC
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full
democracy
right
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire
mid
east!
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the
teeth,
you
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
idiot.
Only if the small minority currently fighting get their way.
Hence
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
the
main
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
reason why the US is fighting back!
You believe their shit, idiot?
No, I don't believe the shit comming out of the mouths of extremists
and
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
terrorists. Question is why do you?
Don't know, what are these extremists and terrorist saying? Was
referring to the shit fed last year for launching this war - "weapons
of mass destruction". You believed the fairly tale then, didn't you.
Idiot.
I believe that what the US and its allies did was a next logical step
for
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
the war against terror. After all, where would we be without that
action?
Post by SKD
Riveted; explain these logical step one by one, will ya.
Simple. Freeing Iraq of Saddam will eventually free up US forces to fight
else where.
Why were US forced tied up? They had no purpose to being there, read
below.
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Saddam would still be in power with US troops and battle groups in the
Gulf
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
region with no end in sight.
What battle groups, fighting whom, and to what end? Let's see you lay
these in the open.
There would be one US battlegroup in the Gulf minimum plus ships of other
nations assisting in keeping the embargo on Iraq.
The embargo was no longer warrented as Scot Ritter, Andrew Wilke and
others had been trying to tell going blue in the faces - find another
egg to suck on.
Yet even the UN had questions about the disappearence of stockpiles with no
trace.
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
There was also thousands of troops and equipment for many more tied up in
stores in Kuwait since the 1991 Gulf war.
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Now, while everyone is focused on Iraq, what else are the US doing to
combat
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
terrorism? We don't exactly know however we have seen some large busts
in
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
recent weeks. Where did the intel for this come from one wonders.
The Saddam, I take?
What would he know about current terrorist avtivity in London?
You are the one implying that the removal of Saddam has something to
do with the intel!!! Wot a bloody waste of time!
Your problem is you are focusing solely on Iraq. This is what the US want
you to focus on as it covers activities on other fronts. al-Qaeda does not
solely opperate in Afghanistan and the US is not only attacking them in Iraq
and Afghanistan.

As Bush said, this war against terrorism is a different type of war. We
will hear of some of the successes whereas other successes will be
non-publised. If the US wanted an end to the Iraqi crisis tomorrow, then
they could get it. Without leaving Iraq.
SKD
2004-04-12 07:56:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and
"radical"
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
clerics
(ie,
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid)
being
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
the
targets
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia
for
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
that
matter
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was
Saudi's
in
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
those
WTC
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full
democracy
right
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the
entire
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
mid
east!
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the
teeth,
you
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
idiot.
Only if the small minority currently fighting get their way.
Hence
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
the
main
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
reason why the US is fighting back!
You believe their shit, idiot?
No, I don't believe the shit comming out of the mouths of
extremists
and
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
terrorists. Question is why do you?
Don't know, what are these extremists and terrorist saying? Was
referring to the shit fed last year for launching this war -
"weapons
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
of mass destruction". You believed the fairly tale then, didn't
you.
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Idiot.
I believe that what the US and its allies did was a next logical
step
for
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
the war against terror. After all, where would we be without that
action?
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Riveted; explain these logical step one by one, will ya.
Simple. Freeing Iraq of Saddam will eventually free up US forces to
fight
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
else where.
Why were US forced tied up? They had no purpose to being there, read
below.
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Saddam would still be in power with US troops and battle groups in
the
Gulf
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
region with no end in sight.
What battle groups, fighting whom, and to what end? Let's see you lay
these in the open.
There would be one US battlegroup in the Gulf minimum plus ships of
other
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
nations assisting in keeping the embargo on Iraq.
The embargo was no longer warrented as Scot Ritter, Andrew Wilke and
others had been trying to tell going blue in the faces - find another
egg to suck on.
Yet even the UN had questions about the disappearence of stockpiles with no
trace.
Nothing unusual for a war torn third world country to lose count of,
again you really should pay attention to what the experts had to say
than pushing half truth and lies. FYI ADF looses it's ammo now and
then too. If you really need to shit in the pants than check with the
Russians they have unacounted for nuclear fuel and god knows wot else.
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
There was also thousands of troops and equipment for many more tied up
in
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
stores in Kuwait since the 1991 Gulf war.
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Now, while everyone is focused on Iraq, what else are the US doing
to
combat
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
terrorism? We don't exactly know however we have seen some large
busts
in
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
recent weeks. Where did the intel for this come from one wonders.
The Saddam, I take?
What would he know about current terrorist avtivity in London?
You are the one implying that the removal of Saddam has something to
do with the intel!!! Wot a bloody waste of time!
Your problem is you are focusing solely on Iraq. This is what the US want
you to focus on as it covers activities on other fronts. al-Qaeda does not
solely opperate in Afghanistan and the US is not only attacking them in Iraq
and Afghanistan.
As Bush said, this war against terrorism is a different type of war. We
will hear of some of the successes whereas other successes will be
non-publised. If the US wanted an end to the Iraqi crisis tomorrow, then
they could get it. Without leaving Iraq.
You repeately come up with conjectures so here's one right back at
you. The military-industry complex was starting to starve after the
boogieman of the Red (Evil) empire had expired. A shitload of some
very expensive WMDs were catching rust, Boeing needed a booster shot.
Laden provides the motive, billions of dollars worhth of hardware get
used in a flash and not only it gets used but replacements have to be
ordered - now wouldn't that be sweet - major bucks for the spooks and
assasins.
Bill Evans
2004-04-12 12:02:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and
"radical"
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
clerics
(ie,
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid)
being
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
the
targets
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia
for
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
that
matter
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was
Saudi's
in
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
those
WTC
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full
democracy
right
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the
entire
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
mid
east!
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the
teeth,
you
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
idiot.
Only if the small minority currently fighting get their way.
Hence
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
the
main
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
reason why the US is fighting back!
You believe their shit, idiot?
No, I don't believe the shit comming out of the mouths of
extremists
and
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
terrorists. Question is why do you?
Don't know, what are these extremists and terrorist saying? Was
referring to the shit fed last year for launching this war -
"weapons
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
of mass destruction". You believed the fairly tale then, didn't
you.
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Idiot.
I believe that what the US and its allies did was a next logical
step
for
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
the war against terror. After all, where would we be without that
action?
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Riveted; explain these logical step one by one, will ya.
Simple. Freeing Iraq of Saddam will eventually free up US forces to
fight
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
else where.
Why were US forced tied up? They had no purpose to being there, read
below.
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Saddam would still be in power with US troops and battle groups in
the
Gulf
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
region with no end in sight.
What battle groups, fighting whom, and to what end? Let's see you lay
these in the open.
There would be one US battlegroup in the Gulf minimum plus ships of
other
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
nations assisting in keeping the embargo on Iraq.
The embargo was no longer warrented as Scot Ritter, Andrew Wilke and
others had been trying to tell going blue in the faces - find another
egg to suck on.
Yet even the UN had questions about the disappearence of stockpiles with no
trace.
Nothing unusual for a war torn third world country to lose count of,
again you really should pay attention to what the experts had to say
than pushing half truth and lies. FYI ADF looses it's ammo now and
then too. If you really need to shit in the pants than check with the
Russians they have unacounted for nuclear fuel and god knows wot else.
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
There was also thousands of troops and equipment for many more tied up
in
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
stores in Kuwait since the 1991 Gulf war.
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Now, while everyone is focused on Iraq, what else are the US doing
to
combat
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
terrorism? We don't exactly know however we have seen some large
busts
in
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
recent weeks. Where did the intel for this come from one wonders.
The Saddam, I take?
What would he know about current terrorist avtivity in London?
You are the one implying that the removal of Saddam has something to
do with the intel!!! Wot a bloody waste of time!
Your problem is you are focusing solely on Iraq. This is what the US want
you to focus on as it covers activities on other fronts. al-Qaeda does not
solely opperate in Afghanistan and the US is not only attacking them in Iraq
and Afghanistan.
As Bush said, this war against terrorism is a different type of war. We
will hear of some of the successes whereas other successes will be
non-publised. If the US wanted an end to the Iraqi crisis tomorrow, then
they could get it. Without leaving Iraq.
You repeately come up with conjectures so here's one right back at
you. The military-industry complex was starting to starve after the
boogieman of the Red (Evil) empire had expired. A shitload of some
very expensive WMDs were catching rust, Boeing needed a booster shot.
Laden provides the motive, billions of dollars worhth of hardware get
used in a flash and not only it gets used but replacements have to be
ordered - now wouldn't that be sweet - major bucks for the spooks and
assasins.
If you do a search of this ng back before the Iraq invasion last year, you
should find a post of mine which said much the same thing. This little
affair has done wonders for employment in the US. I really can't understand
why Wall St gets the jitters whenever there's a bit of an escalation in
hostilities. They should be getting all bullish.
Gregory Shearman
2004-04-10 23:58:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical"
clerics
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
(ie,
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the
targets
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that
matter
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in
those
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
WTC
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full
democracy
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
right
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire mid
east!
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the teeth,
you
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
idiot.
Only if the small minority currently fighting get their way.
Hence
the
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
main
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
reason why the US is fighting back!
You believe their shit, idiot?
No, I don't believe the shit comming out of the mouths of extremists
and terrorists. Question is why do you?
Don't know, what are these extremists and terrorist saying? Was
referring to the shit fed last year for launching this war - "weapons of
mass destruction". You believed the fairly tale then, didn't you. Idiot.
I believe that what the US and its allies did was a next logical step for
the war against terror. After all, where would we be without that action?
The sanctions would have been lifted from Iraq, Saddam deposed, and
democracy installed from within.
Post by Bill Nark
Saddam would still be in power with US troops and battle groups in the
Gulf region with no end in sight.
Nope... Saddam was supported by the USA... without this support he just
wouldn't have survived.
--
Regards,
Gregory.
"Ding-a-Ding Dang, My Dang-a-Long Ling Long."
Straight Talker
2004-04-11 22:27:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical"
clerics
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
(ie,
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being
the
targets
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that
matter
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in
those
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
WTC
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full
democracy
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
right
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire mid
east!
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the teeth,
you
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
idiot.
Only if the small minority currently fighting get their way.
Hence
the
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
main
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
reason why the US is fighting back!
You believe their shit, idiot?
No, I don't believe the shit comming out of the mouths of extremists
and terrorists. Question is why do you?
Don't know, what are these extremists and terrorist saying? Was
referring to the shit fed last year for launching this war - "weapons of
mass destruction". You believed the fairly tale then, didn't you. Idiot.
I believe that what the US and its allies did was a next logical step for
the war against terror. After all, where would we be without that action?
The sanctions would have been lifted from Iraq, Saddam deposed, and
democracy installed from within.
How, exactly, would Saddam have been disposed?
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by Bill Nark
Saddam would still be in power with US troops and battle groups in the
Gulf region with no end in sight.
Nope... Saddam was supported by the USA... without this support he just
wouldn't have survived.
Not over the last decade he wasn't. Also, you have never proved he was a
puppet of the US at all. They stopped supporting him when he started
attacking his own people with chemical weapons. Also, where did he get the
tanks, planes and guns from. I don't see his troops running around flying
F-16's and using M-16's.

You really talk shit sometimes.
Post by Gregory Shearman
--
Regards,
Gregory.
"Ding-a-Ding Dang, My Dang-a-Long Ling Long."
Bill Evans
2004-04-12 02:06:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by SKD
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical"
clerics
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
(ie,
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being
the
targets
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for
that
matter
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's
in
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by Bill Nark
those
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
WTC
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full
democracy
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
right
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire
mid
east!
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the
teeth,
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by Bill Nark
you
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
idiot.
Only if the small minority currently fighting get their way.
Hence
the
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
main
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
reason why the US is fighting back!
You believe their shit, idiot?
No, I don't believe the shit comming out of the mouths of extremists
and terrorists. Question is why do you?
Don't know, what are these extremists and terrorist saying? Was
referring to the shit fed last year for launching this war - "weapons
of
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
mass destruction". You believed the fairly tale then, didn't you.
Idiot.
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by Bill Nark
I believe that what the US and its allies did was a next logical step
for
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by Bill Nark
the war against terror. After all, where would we be without that
action?
Post by Gregory Shearman
The sanctions would have been lifted from Iraq, Saddam deposed, and
democracy installed from within.
How, exactly, would Saddam have been disposed?
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by Bill Nark
Saddam would still be in power with US troops and battle groups in the
Gulf region with no end in sight.
Nope... Saddam was supported by the USA... without this support he just
wouldn't have survived.
Not over the last decade he wasn't. Also, you have never proved he was a
puppet of the US at all. They stopped supporting him when he started
attacking his own people with chemical weapons. Also, where did he get the
tanks, planes and guns from. I don't see his troops running around flying
F-16's and using M-16's.
You really talk shit sometimes.
Post by Gregory Shearman
--
Regards,
Gregory.
"Ding-a-Ling."
Greg ding a ling talks shit most of the time on this matter. Strange that if
the US has been supporting Saddam all this time that the AK47 seems to be
the most common firearm in the country.

He also forgets the Shia uprising in late 91 and what happened then, even
with Saddam's army in disarray after being pounded to shit by the US.
Gregory Shearman
2004-04-13 01:46:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Evans
Greg ding a ling talks shit most of the time on this matter. Strange that
if the US has been supporting Saddam all this time that the AK47 seems to
be the most common firearm in the country.
Irrelevant.

What does it matter where Iraqis buy their rifles?

The USA supplied WMDs and intelligence so that Saddam could whack Iran.
Post by Bill Evans
He also forgets the Shia uprising in late 91 and what happened then, even
with Saddam's army in disarray after being pounded to shit by the US.
I remember it very well... the USA was behind the uprising, then withdrew,
allowing Saddam open season on the shiites.....

...support for Saddam all the way........
--
Regards,
Gregory.
"Ding-a-Ding Dang, My Dang-a-Long Ling Long."
Gregory Shearman
2004-04-13 01:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by SKD
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical"
clerics
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
(ie,
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid)
being the
targets
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for
that
matter
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's
in
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by Bill Nark
those
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
WTC
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full
democracy
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
right
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire mid
east!
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the
teeth,
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by Bill Nark
you
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
idiot.
Only if the small minority currently fighting get their way.
Hence
the
Post by SKD
Post by Bill Nark
main
Post by SKD
Post by SKD
reason why the US is fighting back!
You believe their shit, idiot?
No, I don't believe the shit comming out of the mouths of
extremists and terrorists. Question is why do you?
Don't know, what are these extremists and terrorist saying? Was
referring to the shit fed last year for launching this war - "weapons
of
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by Bill Nark
Post by SKD
mass destruction". You believed the fairly tale then, didn't you.
Idiot.
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by Bill Nark
I believe that what the US and its allies did was a next logical step
for
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by Bill Nark
the war against terror. After all, where would we be without that
action?
Post by Gregory Shearman
The sanctions would have been lifted from Iraq, Saddam deposed, and
democracy installed from within.
How, exactly, would Saddam have been disposed?
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by Bill Nark
Saddam would still be in power with US troops and battle groups in the
Gulf region with no end in sight.
Nope... Saddam was supported by the USA... without this support he just
wouldn't have survived.
Not over the last decade he wasn't.
Oh, you mean with the sanctions... which INCREASED Saddam's control over
his people... anyone who he didn't approve of was probably starved....

Remember that it was the USA who baulked on lifting the sanctions... again
they supported Saddam and his brutal rule.
Post by SKD
Also, you have never proved he was a
puppet of the US at all. They stopped supporting him when he started
attacking his own people with chemical weapons.
Rubbish... they SUPPLIED him with the weapons and then tried to cover up
when it was discovered that he was using them.
Post by SKD
Also, where did he get
the tanks, planes and guns from.
Irrelevant. I'm talking of US support for the tyrant.
Post by SKD
I don't see his troops running around
flying F-16's and using M-16's.
Irrelevant.
Post by SKD
You really talk shit sometimes.
Really? The best flowers are grown in shit.
--
Regards,
Gregory.
"Ding-a-Ding Dang, My Dang-a-Long Ling Long."
Ian McFadyen
2004-04-09 06:04:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by SKD
Post by Straight Talker
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics (ie,
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the targets
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that matter
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in those WTC
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
But imagine what will happen to Saudi Arabia with a full democracy right
next door. In fact, imagine what will happen to the entire mid east!
It'll be like Iran, Islamic, democratic, and armed to the teeth, you idiot.
Exactly how is Iran democratic? At the recent elections reformist candidates
were not allowed to stand by the religious councils which have the right to
veto any candidate they don't approve of.
Bill Evans
2004-04-08 10:25:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics (ie,
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the targets
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that matter
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in those WTC
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
The WOT is, and always has been, a war on Islam. The so-called "clerics"
should all be rounded up and imprisoned for inciting violence and civil
disobedience. Islam needs to be exposed for what it is, an excuse for
lawless behaviour including but not limited to gross abuse of human rights,
murder, theft, and child abuse.
Bill Nark
2004-04-09 06:10:17 UTC
Permalink
Bit snipped...
Post by Bill Evans
The WOT is, and always has been, a war on Islam. The so-called "clerics"
should all be rounded up and imprisoned for inciting violence and civil
disobedience. Islam needs to be exposed for what it is, an excuse for
lawless behaviour including but not limited to gross abuse of human rights,
murder, theft, and child abuse.
Well, by your reasoning, it would seem to be time that Christianity be
exposed for what it is, an excuse for lawless behaviour including but
not limited to gross abuse of human rights, murder, theft and child
abuse. Or any other religion for that matter. Are you atheist or
just opposed to people holding Islamic beliefs?

Bill Nark
The Insensitive Troll
Bill Evans
2004-04-09 11:45:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Nark
Bit snipped...
Post by Bill Evans
The WOT is, and always has been, a war on Islam. The so-called "clerics"
should all be rounded up and imprisoned for inciting violence and civil
disobedience. Islam needs to be exposed for what it is, an excuse for
lawless behaviour including but not limited to gross abuse of human rights,
murder, theft, and child abuse.
Well, by your reasoning, it would seem to be time that Christianity be
exposed for what it is, an excuse for lawless behaviour including but
not limited to gross abuse of human rights, murder, theft and child
abuse. Or any other religion for that matter. Are you atheist or
just opposed to people holding Islamic beliefs?
Crap! Christianity in the context that the teaching of Jesus overide the Old
Testament, does not teach any form of lawless or antisocial behaviour.
Neither do Buddism or Hinduism. Judaism does contain some undesirable
aspects which were apropriate at the time of writing, but which are now
considered by all but a few rabid fools to be socially unacceptable and are
not practised. Of the five major religions in the world, only islam promotes
lawlessness using the excuse of religion.

Personally, I think anybody stupid enough to believe in gods should be
euthanased for the overall benefit of the species..
Fran
2004-04-09 23:57:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Evans
Post by Bill Nark
Bit snipped...
Post by Bill Evans
The WOT is, and always has been, a war on Islam. The so-called "clerics"
should all be rounded up and imprisoned for inciting violence and civil
disobedience. Islam needs to be exposed for what it is, an excuse for
lawless behaviour including but not limited to gross abuse of human
rights,
Post by Bill Nark
Post by Bill Evans
murder, theft, and child abuse.
Well, by your reasoning, it would seem to be time that Christianity be
exposed for what it is, an excuse for lawless behaviour including but
not limited to gross abuse of human rights, murder, theft and child
abuse. Or any other religion for that matter. Are you atheist or
just opposed to people holding Islamic beliefs?
What about Rwanda? A bible in one hand and a machete in the other?
Post by Bill Evans
Crap! Christianity in the context that the teaching of Jesus overide the Old
Testament, does not teach any form of lawless or antisocial behaviour.
Neither do Buddism or Hinduism. Judaism does contain some undesirable
aspects which were apropriate at the time of writing, but which are now
considered by all but a few rabid fools to be socially unacceptable and are
not practised. Of the five major religions in the world, only islam promotes
lawlessness using the excuse of religion.
Personally, I think anybody stupid enough to believe in gods should be
euthanased for the overall benefit of the species..
Bill Evans
2004-04-10 13:39:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fran
Post by Bill Evans
Post by Bill Nark
Bit snipped...
Post by Bill Evans
The WOT is, and always has been, a war on Islam. The so-called "clerics"
should all be rounded up and imprisoned for inciting violence and civil
disobedience. Islam needs to be exposed for what it is, an excuse for
lawless behaviour including but not limited to gross abuse of human
rights,
Post by Bill Nark
Post by Bill Evans
murder, theft, and child abuse.
Well, by your reasoning, it would seem to be time that Christianity be
exposed for what it is, an excuse for lawless behaviour including but
not limited to gross abuse of human rights, murder, theft and child
abuse. Or any other religion for that matter. Are you atheist or
just opposed to people holding Islamic beliefs?
What about Rwanda? A bible in one hand and a machete in the other?
Rwanda was nothing but an intertribal war. Religion played no part.
Post by Fran
Post by Bill Evans
Crap! Christianity in the context that the teaching of Jesus overide the Old
Testament, does not teach any form of lawless or antisocial behaviour.
Neither do Buddism or Hinduism. Judaism does contain some undesirable
aspects which were apropriate at the time of writing, but which are now
considered by all but a few rabid fools to be socially unacceptable and are
not practised. Of the five major religions in the world, only islam promotes
lawlessness using the excuse of religion.
Personally, I think anybody stupid enough to believe in gods should be
euthanased for the overall benefit of the species..
Fran
2004-04-10 22:50:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Evans
Post by Fran
Post by Bill Nark
Bit snipped...
Post by Bill Evans
The WOT is, and always has been, a war on Islam. The so-called
"clerics"
Post by Fran
Post by Bill Nark
Post by Bill Evans
should all be rounded up and imprisoned for inciting violence and
civil
Post by Fran
Post by Bill Nark
Post by Bill Evans
disobedience. Islam needs to be exposed for what it is, an excuse
for
Post by Fran
Post by Bill Nark
Post by Bill Evans
lawless behaviour including but not limited to gross abuse of human
rights,
Post by Fran
Post by Bill Nark
Post by Bill Evans
murder, theft, and child abuse.
Well, by your reasoning, it would seem to be time that Christianity be
exposed for what it is, an excuse for lawless behaviour including but
not limited to gross abuse of human rights, murder, theft and child
abuse. Or any other religion for that matter. Are you atheist or
just opposed to people holding Islamic beliefs?
What about Rwanda? A bible in one hand and a machete in the other?
Rwanda was nothing but an intertribal war. Religion played no part.
Really?

(From a pro-Catholic website)


Last month two Benedictine nuns were convicted in a Belgian court of
collaborating in the murder of thousands during the 1994 genocide in
Rwanda. Sister Gertrude Mukangango and Sister Maria Kisito were
sentenced to fifteen and twelve years' imprisonment, respectively, for
their roles in turning over to their Hutu killers seven thousand Tutsi
who had sought asylum in the nuns' monastery. In addition to betraying
those who had found refuge at the monastery, the sisters willingly
provided the gasoline used by Hutu militiamen to burn down a garage in
which five hundred Tutsi men, women, and children were hiding. The two
women subsequently fled to Belgium, Rwanda's former colonial ruler, in
the hope of escaping prosecution by the Rwandan Patriotic Front (RPF),
the Tutsi-led government now in control of the traumatized Central
African country. More than eight hundred thousand Tutsi were killed in
less than three months at the hands of the Hutu majority in what is
considered one of the worst genocides of the twentieth century.

There appears to be little doubt about the women's guilt. Crucial to
the prosecution was the willingness of other Benedictine sisters to
testify against them. Sister Gertrude and Sister Maria were tried
under a Belgian law that allows the state to prosecute crimes
committed in another country. The convictions are unprecedented
because this is the first time that a jury in one country has
convicted anyone of genocidal acts that occurred in another country.
Human-rights activists are hopeful that the Belgian verdicts will give
new impetus to the prosecution of war crimes.

Of course, bringing the perpetrators of crimes against humanity to
justice is notoriously difficult, especially when the killers comprise
a large portion of the population of an entire society, as was the
case among the Hutu of Rwanda. There are still one hundred thirty
thousand people suspected of genocidal acts in jails in Rwanda.
Currently, the UN is conducting trials in Tanzania of a few of the
accused, but the process has been fitful, and only eight convictions
have been secured in seven years. With few surviving witnesses,
evidence hard to come by, and severe logistical and financial
constraints, justice can seem all but unattainable. Added to these
obstacles and complications is the poor internal human-rights record
of the current government, which has also played a large role in the
civil war and widespread massacres now convulsing the Congo.

In this context, the Belgian verdict appears remarkably fair and a
welcome instance of measured justice. And that makes the Vatican's
response to the convictions doubly disappointing. Joaquin
Navarro-Valls, Vatican spokesman, went out of his way to cast doubt on
the motives of the prosecutors. "The Holy See cannot but express a
certain surprise at seeing the grave responsibility of so many people
and groups involved in this tremendous genocide in the heart of Africa
heaped on so few people," he said. While acknowledging that those
Catholics guilty of murder must accept full responsibility for their
acts, Navarro-Valls insisted that the church "cannot be held
responsible for the sins of its members."

This sort of language is, of course, familiar from "We Remember," the
Vatican's parsimonious 1998 statement on the Holocaust. Unfortunately,
the institutional and theological defensiveness that colors such
Vatican reactions cast more doubt than light on the church's claims.
To be fair, Navarro-Valls's statement can be understood as a response
to the way the RPF has used the Catholic church as a scapegoat in an
effort to deflect attention from its own crimes and abuses of power.
But the Vatican is wrong to raise such suspicions in the context of
the Belgian trial, which was not under RPF influence, and which
represents a significant step toward the successful prosecution of
human-rights crimes. It is equally dispiriting to learn that prominent
Belgian lay Catholics and church officials attempted to block the
trial altogether, and, when that failed, tried to discourage the other
Benedictine nuns from testifying against the indicted sisters.

Rwanda is a predominantly Catholic country, and the church's
missionary work early in the last century often did exacerbate ethnic
antagonism between Tutsi and Hutu. That said, the church cannot be
held responsible for the genocide, which was planned and carried out
by Hutu leaders motivated by political grievances and ethnic hatred.
Catholic bishops, priests, and sisters suffered martyrdom at the hands
of the militias, and ordinary Hutu Catholics were killed trying to
protect Tutsi neighbors. It is equally true, however, that other
clerics and nuns supported the Hutu genocide or stood by silently as
it unfolded. Catholics were found on both sides of this enormous
crime, and it is sobering that the pervasive Catholic institutional
and cultural presence in Rwanda proved little impediment to such
mind-numbing savagery.

Faced with these facts, the church's response to the lawful
prosecution of Catholics involved in mass killings should never hint
at grudging acceptance or parochial interests. That those schooled and
trained for visible leadership in the church succumbed to hateful
violence is an occasion for self-examination and humility, not
self-serving lectures about the distinction between the church "as
such" and her fallible sons and daughters. Some Catholics never tire
of warning that the tolerance and pluralism of Western democracy has
resulted in our losing sight of the existence of moral truth.
Democracy is doomed, they say, if it does not recognize the
relationship between God and humankind as well as the relationship
between morality and politics. There is something to this critique.
But the genocide in Rwanda once again reminds us that even when the
church enjoys a place of preeminence in a culture, there is no
guarantee that the truth about the relationship between God and
humankind will be a living reality in people's hearts, even among
those who represent the official church.


______________________________

****************
______________________________

As to it being intertribal, the division between "Hutu" and "Tutsi"
was entirely artificial, a creation of the Belgian rulers. Those with
ten cows were declared Tutsi, and those without, Hutu, in some cases
splitting families.

One of the backwashes of the genocide has been the growth in Islam,
which was not involved.

FRAN
Bill Evans
2004-04-11 08:23:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fran
Post by Bill Evans
Post by Fran
Post by Bill Nark
Bit snipped...
Post by Bill Evans
The WOT is, and always has been, a war on Islam. The so-called
"clerics"
Post by Fran
Post by Bill Nark
Post by Bill Evans
should all be rounded up and imprisoned for inciting violence and
civil
Post by Fran
Post by Bill Nark
Post by Bill Evans
disobedience. Islam needs to be exposed for what it is, an excuse
for
Post by Fran
Post by Bill Nark
Post by Bill Evans
lawless behaviour including but not limited to gross abuse of human
rights,
Post by Fran
Post by Bill Nark
Post by Bill Evans
murder, theft, and child abuse.
Well, by your reasoning, it would seem to be time that
Christianity be
Post by Fran
Post by Bill Evans
Post by Fran
Post by Bill Nark
exposed for what it is, an excuse for lawless behaviour including but
not limited to gross abuse of human rights, murder, theft and child
abuse. Or any other religion for that matter. Are you atheist or
just opposed to people holding Islamic beliefs?
What about Rwanda? A bible in one hand and a machete in the other?
Rwanda was nothing but an intertribal war. Religion played no part.
Really?
(From a pro-Catholic website)
So what? The Catholic Church did not deliberately provoke the unrest and
murder, nor does it support it or teach such things as a solution to
problems. It was catholics v catholics so how can you claim that to be
religiously inspired
Post by Fran
Last month two Benedictine nuns were convicted in a Belgian court of
collaborating in the murder of thousands during the 1994 genocide in
Rwanda. Sister Gertrude Mukangango and Sister Maria Kisito were
sentenced to fifteen and twelve years' imprisonment, respectively, for
their roles in turning over to their Hutu killers seven thousand Tutsi
who had sought asylum in the nuns' monastery. In addition to betraying
those who had found refuge at the monastery, the sisters willingly
provided the gasoline used by Hutu militiamen to burn down a garage in
which five hundred Tutsi men, women, and children were hiding. The two
women subsequently fled to Belgium, Rwanda's former colonial ruler, in
the hope of escaping prosecution by the Rwandan Patriotic Front (RPF),
the Tutsi-led government now in control of the traumatized Central
African country. More than eight hundred thousand Tutsi were killed in
less than three months at the hands of the Hutu majority in what is
considered one of the worst genocides of the twentieth century.
There appears to be little doubt about the women's guilt. Crucial to
the prosecution was the willingness of other Benedictine sisters to
testify against them. Sister Gertrude and Sister Maria were tried
under a Belgian law that allows the state to prosecute crimes
committed in another country. The convictions are unprecedented
because this is the first time that a jury in one country has
convicted anyone of genocidal acts that occurred in another country.
Human-rights activists are hopeful that the Belgian verdicts will give
new impetus to the prosecution of war crimes.
Of course, bringing the perpetrators of crimes against humanity to
justice is notoriously difficult, especially when the killers comprise
a large portion of the population of an entire society, as was the
case among the Hutu of Rwanda. There are still one hundred thirty
thousand people suspected of genocidal acts in jails in Rwanda.
Currently, the UN is conducting trials in Tanzania of a few of the
accused, but the process has been fitful, and only eight convictions
have been secured in seven years. With few surviving witnesses,
evidence hard to come by, and severe logistical and financial
constraints, justice can seem all but unattainable. Added to these
obstacles and complications is the poor internal human-rights record
of the current government, which has also played a large role in the
civil war and widespread massacres now convulsing the Congo.
In this context, the Belgian verdict appears remarkably fair and a
welcome instance of measured justice. And that makes the Vatican's
response to the convictions doubly disappointing. Joaquin
Navarro-Valls, Vatican spokesman, went out of his way to cast doubt on
the motives of the prosecutors. "The Holy See cannot but express a
certain surprise at seeing the grave responsibility of so many people
and groups involved in this tremendous genocide in the heart of Africa
heaped on so few people," he said. While acknowledging that those
Catholics guilty of murder must accept full responsibility for their
acts, Navarro-Valls insisted that the church "cannot be held
responsible for the sins of its members."
This sort of language is, of course, familiar from "We Remember," the
Vatican's parsimonious 1998 statement on the Holocaust. Unfortunately,
the institutional and theological defensiveness that colors such
Vatican reactions cast more doubt than light on the church's claims.
To be fair, Navarro-Valls's statement can be understood as a response
to the way the RPF has used the Catholic church as a scapegoat in an
effort to deflect attention from its own crimes and abuses of power.
But the Vatican is wrong to raise such suspicions in the context of
the Belgian trial, which was not under RPF influence, and which
represents a significant step toward the successful prosecution of
human-rights crimes. It is equally dispiriting to learn that prominent
Belgian lay Catholics and church officials attempted to block the
trial altogether, and, when that failed, tried to discourage the other
Benedictine nuns from testifying against the indicted sisters.
Rwanda is a predominantly Catholic country, and the church's
missionary work early in the last century often did exacerbate ethnic
antagonism between Tutsi and Hutu. That said, the church cannot be
held responsible for the genocide, which was planned and carried out
by Hutu leaders motivated by political grievances and ethnic hatred.
Catholic bishops, priests, and sisters suffered martyrdom at the hands
of the militias, and ordinary Hutu Catholics were killed trying to
protect Tutsi neighbors. It is equally true, however, that other
clerics and nuns supported the Hutu genocide or stood by silently as
it unfolded. Catholics were found on both sides of this enormous
crime, and it is sobering that the pervasive Catholic institutional
and cultural presence in Rwanda proved little impediment to such
mind-numbing savagery.
Faced with these facts, the church's response to the lawful
prosecution of Catholics involved in mass killings should never hint
at grudging acceptance or parochial interests. That those schooled and
trained for visible leadership in the church succumbed to hateful
violence is an occasion for self-examination and humility, not
self-serving lectures about the distinction between the church "as
such" and her fallible sons and daughters. Some Catholics never tire
of warning that the tolerance and pluralism of Western democracy has
resulted in our losing sight of the existence of moral truth.
Democracy is doomed, they say, if it does not recognize the
relationship between God and humankind as well as the relationship
between morality and politics. There is something to this critique.
But the genocide in Rwanda once again reminds us that even when the
church enjoys a place of preeminence in a culture, there is no
guarantee that the truth about the relationship between God and
humankind will be a living reality in people's hearts, even among
those who represent the official church.
______________________________
****************
______________________________
As to it being intertribal, the division between "Hutu" and "Tutsi"
was entirely artificial, a creation of the Belgian rulers. Those with
ten cows were declared Tutsi, and those without, Hutu, in some cases
splitting families.
One of the backwashes of the genocide has been the growth in Islam,
which was not involved.
FRAN
H.Dickmann
2004-04-09 14:21:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Evans
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics (ie,
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the targets
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that matter
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in those WTC
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
The WOT is, and always has been, a war on Islam. The so-called "clerics"
should all be rounded up and imprisoned for inciting violence and civil
disobedience. Islam needs to be exposed for what it is, an excuse for
lawless behaviour including but not limited to gross abuse of human rights,
murder, theft, and child abuse.
Just like the 30 year religious war in Europe?
Bill Evans
2004-04-10 13:42:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Evans
Post by Bill Evans
Post by Bill Nark
With Saddam out of the picture and mosques and "radical" clerics (ie,
they dont' agree with US foreign policy, god forbid) being the targets
of US military attacks, how can the US and Australia for that matter
justify this war.
And don't give me that war on terror shit, it was Saudi's in those WTC
planes, NOT Iraqi's.
The WOT is, and always has been, a war on Islam. The so-called "clerics"
should all be rounded up and imprisoned for inciting violence and civil
disobedience. Islam needs to be exposed for what it is, an excuse for
lawless behaviour including but not limited to gross abuse of human
rights,
Post by Bill Evans
murder, theft, and child abuse.
Just like the 30 year religious war in Europe?
The past is past. The rest of the world has moved on and re-evaluated their
standards of morality. Only Islam wants to live in a time warp.
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